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German wartime / "Nazi" Caliper

Zonko

Stainless
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Location
Northern Germany
Hi

Rivett asked me to take photos of this a while ago and I finally got arount to taking some. Now I could just sent him a PM with the pics , but that would be a shame in case someone else wants to find out more about old German tooling.....so here they are.



DSC_06510002.jpg

DSC_06500001.jpg

SwasticaOnCaliper.jpg

The maker is MASSI, an old German Maker dating back to the late 19th, absorbed by the GDR communist state and lost in the end of that state....as usual...sad story...one of many...
Unfortunately i could not highlight it because i forgot to take a photo of the MASSI tag and it is too blurred to highlight on those Photos.

Best wishes
Max

Edit: Bam ! I make it a habit to always take photos in NEF - RAW data, that way you have a lot of data to extract images from. And i was able to extract enough MASSI to highlight it :

Clipboard01.jpg
 
Thank you for taking the photos...... I don't not mean to criticize you in any way but based on what I can see in the pictures there are some things that don't look quite right. Look at these calipers in real and tell us if I am just seeing things in the digital image or have a point. What doesn't look right to me is the Nazi mark on the back.... it almost looks pantographed in with a milling cutter, the lines look too wide and it doesn't looked stamped. If a company was making these it would make sense to stamp them.... the other marks appear to be stamped? It also looks a little crocked, one would think a German maker of precision tools would get it straight? Now as with anything that doesn't look right the first question is who someone do that.... in this case that is easy, I guess a Nazi caliper would bring a lot more than a regular on from the same time period and we do know there is a lot of fake Nazi stuff on the market... think of the many counterfeit daggers. Have you ever seen other tools with this mark?

I will be curious what you think and I hope I am just seeing things......
 
I would suggest a standard part that has been engraved after supply rather than made specifically to order. It'd be done on a pantograph engraver at the base to which it was supplied.
 
Something's fishy I think. It's dual graduated in mm and inch.

At the time of ww2 I believe the germans were inch-based.

Jim,
I think the German's started using the metric system in about 1872. Before that I think they may have used a localised 'inch' systems much like the rest of mainland Europe but they were certainly metric by before the end of the 19th century as I understand the chronology. In fact it was a legal system of measurment in the US by 1866.

Jim
 
Germany was not inch based. But the inch was much more common than today.Stuff
could be in inches from time to time. Anyways, the inch scale is the secondary scale.

I also do not know where this is from. I found it in a dumpster with a pair of very beat up and old dividers and this funny hatchet tool, somebody cleared his grandfathers basement or whatever. If someone made this to sell it for money, he failed......

The caliper is of rather crude make, it is as simple as you can make a caliper and not especially accurate, sounds about right for war production in the last desperate years.

The swastika engraving is equally crude. I am pretty certain every half assed pantograph would do a better job unless the bit was completely fried.
Its kinda a surface imperfection, not the result of a cutter milling away material. Looks more like the work of engraving with a burr or a large vibratory engraving pencil.

The Massi logo is even clean and professional.

I just googled "Wehrmacht Werkzeug" and found this :

https://www.weitze.net/detail/36/Wehrmacht_Werkzeug__151636.html

The same logo, this time punched in a half assed fashion.

Orig. Messlehre Waffenmeisters MG 42 K 98 Wehrmacht WaA | Hood.de

Again, same logo, punched manually, not true and square to anything and certainly old looking, not like a fake.

My conclusion would be : The war was essentially lost, there was chaos, someone (the quartermaster/his minions) did not have the proper punch for whatever reason and used the next worst tool he had.
 
Years ago on this board there was a discussion of a purported german, waffen-amped tap and die set that was supposedly
from a U-boat. There was a lively discussion starting with the premise that it was a fake as the threads in question
were inch-based.

Good evidence was given that it was probably real, and that inch based threads were common in the german navy at the
time of WW2
 
As for this being in inches.... it could very well have been made for export and then just kept at "home" due to the war. If you look through a lot of American tool catalogs from between the wars you see a lot of cheap German tools, they were kind of like the Japanese tools we used to see here in the 70's. Remember too how much the German Mark had devalued after WWI........

The part I have a problem with is why would someone go through the trouble of hand engraving this with a rotary type tool? I can't see a company doing that, or a quartermaster........ the only person I can see doing it is someone trying to increase it's value....... Interesting and a shame we will never know for sure unless we find the guy's workshop like they did of the famous German wine forger.... the one that "found" the bottle of Jefferson's wine that Forbes paid a $ 156,000 for......
 
Im getting more and more curious. If forged to sell high, then why was it forgot in some basement and allowed to rust. This is the type of humidity rust that developed over a long period of time. It can`t be wiped off, steel wool doesnt work either and I will not use any agressive methods. The rust doesnt hamper function anyways.

Its kinda weird. Either that guy was completely bonkers and wanted that rust as part of the fake antique look.
But it aint have any MADE IN .... engraving. MASSI was GDR state owned after the war so i think they would have printed their proud MADE IN GDR on the damn thing, celebrating their unlawful and despisable secession from Germany proper. (Of course the Soviets and only the soviets are to blame for this bullshit.)
So I would tend t think it is as old as it appears and was not made for export.

Id think that if it was forged, the last owner fell for it and bought that fake, not made that fake. You dont engrave a swastika on the caliper you use and abuse to eventually forget it in your basement (unless you are plain simple nuts) . Since it was found in trash together, grouped, with other abused and heavylie worn tools and junk i am rather certain it was not a showpiece.
 
Zonko,
Is the inch scale 'proper' imperial inches? I can't tell from the photos. Germany did use localised 'inch' systems in the 19th century as I said before so perhaps it's older than you think. Just got engraved later in it's life.

Jim
 
The Nazi bits looks very poorly done and it may well have been made to sell at an inflated price but maybe no one was gullible enought to buy it? Perhaps this is just a reject from a number made by the person who threw this one in the dumpster. If he was in the GDR what opportunities would he have had to pass it on to some one from the West with money to spend on something like that?
 
The Germans have been using metric measurement for ammunition for more than a century.
8x57 mm Mauser rifle
9mm Parabellum
'88' Artillery
 
Zonko,
Is the inch scale 'proper' imperial inches? I can't tell from the photos. Germany did use localised 'inch' systems in the 19th century as I said before so perhaps it's older than you think. Just got engraved later in it's life.

Jim

I think the scale is imperial inches, pretty shure. But I will turn a scrap to exactly 25.4mm using a micrometer and check it against that if i dont forget to do so, next time i will be at the shop and have a chance to use the lathe will be in 10 days - 2 weeks - something like that.
 
The Germans have been using metric measurement for ammunition for more than a century.
8x57 mm Mauser rifle
9mm Parabellum
'88' Artillery
Yes but many of their arms have inch threads, even whitworth form threads. The Mauser rifles, developed by a German, were originally built on English Made machine tools and the drawings done in England as well hence the inch threads and Whitworth form. When the Germans began making their own production tooling, they kept the inch and whitworth threads.
 
After Napoleon destroyed what was left of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (the medieval German Empire, unstable and ineffectual by then) Germany was nothing but the so called "Patchwork carpet", a loose confederation of small domains ruled by noblemen. It was 1871 when Prussia, arisen to be the most powerful and modern German state united all the German states under emperor Wilhelm to create the second empire, lasting until the revolution in the closing days of the first world war. It were sailors of the imperial navy, unwilling to give their lives in a last and vain battle, who took control of their ships and threatened to fire on the upperclass/officer estate district of Düsternbrook "= Direbrook"...yes...here..in my home..the imperial war port, the city of Kiel in northern Germany. The fire spread and the empire became a republic, troubled by the great depression and the treaty of versailles, public discontent finally paving the way for the rise of Adolf Hitler.

Enough of history, as you can see it was indeed the case, that at least until 1871 the only place you could look to for reliable norms was Great Britain. Wiki says Germany became metric in 1870, most likely as politicians were drawing up the laws and regulations in preparation of 1871.

And as we can read here on the board , the "old salts" dont like to change the ways of measuring they have grown up with.
 
I think a lot of Europe used a combination of measurement systems. This was primarily in the area of threading. In countries which otherwise used the Metric system, pipe threads might be the British tapered pipe or British Straight Pipe. On steam locomotive boiler work, a lot of the world seemed to favor the British Whitworth Threads for staybolts. I've done the boiler calculations on some Swedish built steam locomotives that were brought into the US & Canada. This is where I saw the mix of metric dimensions on all the parts of the boiler, and the odd use of inch dimensions for some of the pipe threads and staybolt threads.

The other thought which crosses my mind as I read this thread is the idea that the caliper has dual graduations to handle work on stuff imported into Germany. Look at the thread with the photo of the old machine tool dealer, and there were a lot of US made machine tools imported into Germany prior to the start of WWII. Think of something like an automotive repair garage prior to WWII, and there would have been automobiles and trucks imported from the USA. Think of a machinist working in a shipyard, and a merchant vessel might have been built in England or the USA.

Conversely, as a modern day example: at our powerplant, we have four (4) Hitachi pump turbine units. These were built ca 1970-72, at Hitachi's main works in Japan. I believe the drawings were specified by contract to have dimensions in inches and to use Unified Standard Form threads. However, leave it to Hitachi to slip a few wild cards in. On the high pressure hydraulic lines, they used British Straight Pipe Threads with copper gaskets. Here and there, we find metric threads. In our high voltage switchyard, we had air circuit breakers made by Brown Boveri (since replaced with modern SF 6 breakers). The old Brown Boveri equipment used all metric dimensions and metric threads on the fasteners, but used British pipe threads. Go figure why.

Look at something so common as an automotive spark plug. Since the dawn of automobiles and motorcycles, the threads have been metric. Very early spark plugs in the USA used tapered pipe threads or US threads, but those were obsolete and all spark plugs seem to use a metric base thread.

I think the world uses whatever seems right to the engineers designing the job. Sometimes, in certain countries, major industrialization or heavy construction projects were done by firms from England or the USA. The whole country would be metric, but there would be a job done in feet and inches. When I worked in South America, there was this mix of systems of measurements and threads as a result. The metric system was the law of the land, but so much stuff was already in place made with dimensions in feet and inches that both systems seemed to be used interchangeably.

As for the caliper, I think the engraving on it may have been done by some guy "accepting it" or "making it property of" the German military or some part of the German government at the time. It looks like the kind of engraving a person in a toolroom might do, freehand with either a spark-engraver or perhaps a die grinder and very small grinding point. I kind of doubt it was done with any sort of machine like a pantograph or with a stamping die. But, I have a hard time imagining anyone in a real toolroom would do that kind of engraving job on a caliper. Probably just some guy who worked in a military supply depot who got told to mark all the tools as property of the German military. On something like a vernier caliper, he could not hit it with a steel stamp, so he had to freehand engrave the insignia. Maybe he stamped the insignia on with a rubber stamp and ink and then attempted to trace it in with a die grinder or electric spark etcher (as is used in tool rooms). The result is the crude looking job in the photos.

Zonko: Yesterday, I enjoyed the metric system in the Good Old USA. My wife and I were riding on our old BMW R 100/7 with another couple, riding their BMW R 90/6. We rode to this area of the Catskill Mountains, about 40 miles from our house, and had lunch in a German bakery. Lunch was a couple of bratwurst with German potato salad, sauerkraut, good bread, and a bottle of Wartsteiner. The ladies went for the desserts. My buddy's wife is from a small village outside Mainz, and the waitress was from Essen. Lunch was also a mixture of speaking German and English. After lunch, we rode through the back roads, and stopped at the local Brauhaus. It was built in 1948 by carpenters from Germany. Of course, we had no problems with liters of Wartsteiner beer.

My buddy and I work on the old "Airhead" BMW motorcycles. My mind still thinks in inches, so I have to transpose to metric. I've been riding the "Airhead" BMW motorcycles for 37 years, and still cannot get to thinking in metric. But, I never have a problem with beer measured in liters. Call me one of the oldtimers.
 
I think the scale is imperial inches, pretty shure. But I will turn a scrap to exactly 25.4mm using a micrometer and check it against that if i dont forget to do so, next time i will be at the shop and have a chance to use the lathe will be in 10 days - 2 weeks - something like that.

I'm sure it will be good enough to set the inch scale to 1, 2, 3 etc respectively and see what the metric scale reads.

Jim
 
This caliper is fine for me, the pantographed eagle/M is typical of other equipment that was used by the Kriegsmarine, seen on everything from belts, buckles, up to flags and huge coastal rangefinders.
 
Zonko:

On the picture with the swastika, it looks like you have done some "paint" job on top of the engraving.
Can you post a picture without the highligts, if that's the case?

Best regards
Søren
 








 
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