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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButchC View Post
    Wow this thread is destined to be THE G&L 25 info place,
    Glad to see somebody into the drive for the head. I have same bearing(s?) on the drive worm shaft making a bit of noise. Mine isn't real bad, depends on what gear and how much load is on the spindle. Another problem is right now there is always a job waiting for space on the table,, dang engine buddies anyway.
    Chris I have the lube system video done and will be editing and posting soon.

    Butch
    Thanks Butch,

    Glad to hear your G&L is busy.
    I have been looking forward to this information on your lube system. This will help me on the changes I want to make and to get some more ideas for improvement. You surprised me by doing this in video.

    Chris

  2. #142
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    Mine is back together again now and operational...

    For the 7013 bearings, I made up two shims that go between the bearings, one for the OD and one for the ID... The inside shim is 0.01mm thicker then the OD shim.... This applies preload to the bearing when the pair are clamped together in the housing in a face to face configuration.. It is a big of a cludge setup, but should work... Not like I am going to be using the machine 7 days a week....

    20140411_155241.jpg

    I had a set up on the surface plate to check to see if this would work, and it appears to have done so... When installed the bearings were not loose but not tight either...

    The head still has a slight rattle in it, but that is the vertical shaft rattling in the spline, but it still seems to be a very nice fit...

    The facing head is 70% back together... I am going to put it all together, then find the balance point and drill and tap a hole in it to be able to screw in a lifting lug if it needs to be removed from the head...

    For those pulling the facing head apart... You can not pull the facing mechanism out until you remove two hidden cap head screws, hidden under the gears at the rear of the head..

    20140411_090220.jpg

    The machine seems to be full of dog clutches... But I must say this machine has been extremely well made...

    Take a look at the condition of this dog clutch, it is the spindle engage/disengage clutch... Immaculate condition still...

    20140411_175149.jpg


    Compared to your generic lathe or mill, these horizontal borers are works of wonder... I imagine the machines with the built in facing head plus have things like screw cutting to the travelling spindle, must be complicated devils of things in their heads...

    Also realising how small the #25 is compared to others with just a slightly bigger spindle and table, yet weigh twice as much...

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  4. #143
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    Started to type out an explanation of my machine's lube system and that got long winded REAL quick so I shot this video. I am thinking strongly about selling my machinery and getting into the movie business,,, NOT! For an owner/operator build I would think that one of the manually operated one-shot lube pumps would do what mine electric pump and timer is doing?

    As explained in the clip the paperwork that came with my machine indicates this modification was preform at the G&L factory when there for rebuild.

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  6. #144
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    Yeah you should see inside one of the spindle frames on the old " Richards Electrabores ". You can't see for gears, shafts, electro-magnetic clutches etc. You needed to be on good form to repair those, especially in situ.
    They were built laid on their backs in the shop. That makes it a lot easier to get at and heavy stuff can be lowered in with the crane.
    To get the main spindle out, most of the other lines had to come out first. Then they had to go back in again. They were very unforgiving of carelessness. Make a mistake and it was start all over again. The ones with taper boring and screw cutting were worse still.

    The first time I had a SF 125 spindle frame apart I made a small error. Normally I made my own drawings but luckily the owner of the machine had a full set of shop drawings, so I followed their drawings. I changed the Timken bearings on the main spindle and rebuilt the spindle frame gearbox. Each of the three lines that carried the clutches had shafts that were identical ( same part number on the drawing etc ) apart from one small detail.

    Lubricating oil was fed down the shafts to the clutches via rotary valves. Each shaft had three holes that lined up with the inside of the clutches. That is apart from one that had two clutches and the third hole was plugged up ! You can see what's coming I suppose.

    I mixed up the two shafts. That meant one clutch would be running dry.

    I rebuilt the machine, ran it through all the speed ranges and it seemed fine. I was in another part of the shop cleaning my tools about an hour later when the owner came up to me. He said " How long has that borer been steam powered Tyrone ? ". I said " What do you mean ? " . He said " There's steam coming out of the spindle frame ! ".

    Cut a long story short, two of the shafts that carried lines had to come out and be swapped over.

    I'd already been on the job a week and I was knackered, that meant two more days work. Happy days ? I don't think so.

    A guy contacted me the other day about doing a similar job on a 5" spindle wide bed " Electrabore ".
    I had to turn him down, I no longer have the physical or mental strength to tackle job like that anymore.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  8. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButchC View Post
    Started to type out an explanation of my machine's lube system and that got long winded REAL quick so I shot this video. I am thinking strongly about selling my machinery and getting into the movie business,,, NOT! For an owner/operator build I would think that one of the manually operated one-shot lube pumps would do what mine electric pump and timer is doing?

    As explained in the clip the paperwork that came with my machine indicates this modification was preform at the G&L factory when there for rebuild.
    They did a very thorough job there. Tuning all those outlets in must have took a while. Regards Tyrone.

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  10. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    Mine is back together again now and operational...

    For the 7013 bearings, I made up two shims that go between the bearings, one for the OD and one for the ID...

    The facing head is 70% back together...

    Great news that this worked RC99 and thanks for the pictures.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by ButchC View Post
    Started to type out an explanation of my machine's lube system and that got long winded REAL quick so I shot this video. I am thinking strongly about selling my machinery and getting into the movie business,,, NOT! For an owner/operator build I would think that one of the manually operated one-shot lube pumps would do what mine electric pump and timer is doing?

    As explained in the clip the paperwork that came with my machine indicates this modification was preform at the G&L factory when there for rebuild.
    Thanks Butch,

    I'm going to be watching and studying that video for a while.

    Wow! That system is slick in more than one way! I can tell that was a lot of work. A lot of drilling and tapping while the machine was apart for even more lube points than original. And to tune all this like Tyrone said.

    If I ever have some major components apart I'll consider adding more to them then.

    I'll look at some if they are easy to do and ad them.

    But for now I will be changing some to drip oiling. (I have a fairly big old electric solenoid on/off reservoir that was not being used any more from a printing press.)

    Then I 'll be changing some others to a manual one-shot oiler like you said.

    I will definitely not be using the headstock oil to oil the headstock ways any more as mine is currently plumbed which somewhat wastes/depletes the headstock.

    I will have to think/study about this more also.

    Again Thanks,
    Chris

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    Getting it level..

    20140412_131756.jpg

    Plus some what I assume are bits for a horizontal borer I picked up five years ago at a clearing sale of a gear cutting shop..... I bought a solid wooden cupboard that was a bit like a lucky dip as it was full of various tooling, and the seller had a Kearns borer that was also sold at the auction (that I never bought as it was before I had the ability to power it)

    20140412_131953.jpg

  13. #149
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    Well I had to punch a hole in something..... Anything...

    Yea it is aluminium.... drill is 35mm or so, no pilot hole...

    Like a hot knife through butter...

    20140412_171745.jpg

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    Hi RC, On a well used machine a box level will only get you near regarding alignments. You really need to clock up and down a biggish square ( 2 ft minimum ) in the two planes to be sure that your column is really square to the bed. In an ideal world you want your column leaning forward towards the table 0.001" to counteract push off. There are plenty of important alignment tests that go beyond the levelling up stage.

    Another important aspect of Hor bore work is " Setting Up ". I was lucky in working with a lot of Hor bore operators that had been doing the job all their lives. Most of the time when you repaired their machines you hung around to see a test piece being machined. As a result you got to see plenty of set ups.
    In the little set up you've got with the aluminium casting if you had " slot stops " in the tee slots and pushed the casting back to them the set up would be more secure.

    If you're done that and it's not obvious from the photo please accept my apologies. I don't want to come across as a know all.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Hi RC, On a well used machine a box level will only get you near regarding alignments. You really need to clock up and down a biggish square ( 2 ft minimum ) in the two planes to be sure that your column is really square to the bed. In an ideal world you want your column leaning forward towards the table 0.001" to counteract push off. There are plenty of important alignment tests that go beyond the levelling up stage.

    Another important aspect of Hor bore work is " Setting Up ". I was lucky in working with a lot of Hor bore operators that had been doing the job all their lives. Most of the time when you repaired their machines you hung around to see a test piece being machined. As a result you got to see plenty of set ups.
    In the little set up you've got with the aluminium casting if you had " slot stops " in the tee slots and pushed the casting back to them the set up would be more secure.

    If you're done that and it's not obvious from the photo please accept my apologies. I don't want to come across as a know all.

    Regards Tyrone.

    Thanks Tyrone, I have a mint Brown and Sharpe 20" square... It is the biggest square I have... I will give the test a run....

    I am pretty sure you will have forgotten far more then I will ever learn about horizontal borers.... As far as I am concerned only a self proclaimed "expert" would not read what you post... Thanks for all your posts here...

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  19. #152
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    Thanks for that. Once you've got the bed level you need to clock from the bed ways to the saddle ways in the four positions. A small height gauge and a finger clock is ideal for this. I always slid a 0.500 " slip gauge under the finger of the clock rather than clock directly onto the ways. If you get four zero's you then need to do the same test clocking from the saddle ways onto your revolving table. If that gives you four zero's again you can place your square on the table and using the spindle frame run a plunger clock up the square in the two planes. That will tell you if your column is square to your table. Obviously that is what matters most.
    There are other tests but that's enough to be going on with.

    The text book method for this test is to place your square on the bed way nearest the operator to set the column square but it's not always easy to do. You are also supposed to put a large girder type straight edge across the bedways and place your square on that for the test in the other plane. That's OK if you've got a big girder type straight edge.

    I hope all that's not too confusing.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  21. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Thanks for that. Once you've got the bed level you need to clock from the bed ways to the saddle ways in the four positions. A small height gauge and a finger clock is ideal for this. I always slid a 0.500 " slip gauge under the finger of the clock rather than clock directly onto the ways. If you get four zero's you then need to do the same test clocking from the saddle ways onto your revolving table. If that gives you four zero's again you can place your square on the table and using the spindle frame run a plunger clock up the square in the two planes. That will tell you if your column is square to your table. Obviously that is what matters most.
    There are other tests but that's enough to be going on with.

    The text book method for this test is to place your square on the bed way nearest the operator to set the column square but it's not always easy to do. You are also supposed to put a large girder type straight edge across the bedways and place your square on that for the test in the other plane. That's OK if you've got a big girder type straight edge.

    I hope all that's not too confusing.

    Regards Tyrone.
    If you can get your hands on a cylindrical square that is the ideal instrument to check the table.

    John

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    Wasted some time today, but worked out in the end..

    I decided to fix the morse taper socket... I bought two M14 X 1.5 socket head screws last week to use to make a tang for the socket.... Apparently grub screws in this size are made of unobtanium, just like 9/16 UNF it seems..

    So I marked out where to drill the holes, got the orientation right and decided it easiest to do on the mill table...

    So I tried to pull the spindle... Without any luck.... It had tight spots in it and would not pull out.... I only tried by hand so nothing was forced.. Took all the covers off the side, took the spindle power feed rack off... All a very simple design... Was looking for an adjustable bushing that I assume the spindle runs in.... No luck, could not see anything..

    So I put it all back together and put the spindle just a tad above the table and put the mag base drill on the table, got the hole positioned correctly and drilled the holes with the mag base drill.. Each hole done separately.. The spindle has a hardened skin, not very thick.... I remembered people saying you can sharpen carbide tipped masonary drills for drilling very hard steels...

    So I had some on hand, shaprened on the diamond wheel and they drilled through the hard skin, which was then finished off with a HSS drill..

    It was countersunk a bit so the tap would not be trying to cut the hardened area....

    All in all it seems a successful fix, fitted some home made grub screws, they just have a single slot for insertion...

    20140413_154923.jpg 20140413_161653.jpg 20140413_180707.jpg

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  24. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by amdinc View Post
    If you can get your hands on a cylindrical square that is the ideal instrument to check the table.

    John

    In theory you may be right. In practice I always found it difficult to be certain that you were actually clocking along the true centre line. With a pretty big conventional square the blade is maybe 1/4" wide so any deviation in the other plane is taken care of. You can get one plane right and then the other. " Kearns-Richards ", makers of Hor bores always used conventional squares.

    Plus if you do intend to use a girder type straight edge across the bedways you will have to balance the cylindrical square on the straight edge, a conventional square fits nicely.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    In theory you may be right. In practice I always found it difficult to be certain that you were actually clocking along the true centre line. With a pretty big conventional square the blade is maybe 1/4" wide so any deviation in the other plane is taken care of. You can get one plane right and then the other. " Kearns-Richards ", makers of Hor bores always used conventional squares.

    Plus if you do intend to use a girder type straight edge across the bedways you will have to balance the cylindrical square on the straight edge, a conventional square fits nicely.

    Regards Tyrone.
    I use a square for setting the column. On a large machine I use a thin wire and heavy plumb bob set in oil and mike off the wire to the column. If the bed ways are level then the column will be perpendicular to it using the wire.

    I was referring to checking the machine after the table is installed. I set the cylindrical square on the table and then go up one side to check the table to left and right y axis alignment. Then go up the front of the cylindrical square and check for front to back alignment. After that I do the same thing after rotating the table every 45 degrees. I have use of a 5 ft. x 1 ft square which does a nice job for checking alignment. To check for any droop on the spindle itself I move the table in and out and check along the spindle.
    Here are a couple of pictures of a K&T Moduline I am setting up. The ways were leveled in both across and along the axis. I then double check by moving the column back and forth, in an out with the precision levels in both axis. I then grouted in the table after getting the table edge perpendicular to the spindle. Monday I will level the table and recheck the spindle/table squareness. The table will be leveled with the jack bolts that are grouted into the concrete slab. web-pictures-161.jpgweb-pictures-160.jpgweb-pictures-159.jpgweb-pictures-157.jpgweb-pictures-109.jpg

    John

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    Hi John, I suppose it's what you're used to. I've used cylindrical squares and I prefer the conventional type of square. If you're clocking up the front of the cylinder you can't know you're going up the centre line right away. If the column is leaning over in the other plane you can be clocking across the centre line. I found them a bit of a fiddle to get started with compared with a conventional square.

    I'm not familiar with the Moduline type machine but I presume from the photo's it's a T bed or " planer style " machine. The alignments tests for those are slightly different to the standard bed type Hor bore.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Not actually related to the #25 borers, but a few video's on youtube of operations... There is not a lot of videos of boring mill operations compared to the more common mills and lathes, but still a few out there, usually in a different language...

    Traction engine axle repairs - YouTube

    richards horizontal boring [email protected] - YouTube

    Factory Dragon 87 has quite a few Line boring in "split bore" on Stanko 2L614 Horizontal borer - YouTube

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    Looks like the " Belgian " machine in the traction engine video could be a " Pegard " . It doesn't look like a " Forges De Gilly ". That's another set up that would benefit from being pushed up against " slot stops ". I wonder why he's running the spindle in reverse.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    I now have some more tooling..... Awhile ago I purchased a morse taper 4 to ER40 tool.. This was just for general use in the many things I have that take morse taper 4 tooling..

    Of course it never had a tool retainer slot, but a 10mm carbide endmill soon saw to that and a slot was made..... Made up a retaining wedge and all was good.. It will actually slot way back inside the facing head... So the ER40 tool may be a reasonably permanent attachment...

    Not having a large angle plate, but while looking in the scrap pile, I saw a knee off an old Pallas milling machine I scrapped.. It looked like it would make a fairly sturdy angle plate.. Just needed some work...

    So I put a 1 3/4 shell end mill in the travelling spindle and started milling off the dovetails to make the part flat....

    Well moving up from a bridgeport clone the G&L certainly has some rigidity... It handled the big end mill with ease... Got rid of the excess cast iron, then put a HSS tool on the facing head and faced off the part.... It just needs cleaning up and a few tapped holes here and there and should be all good.


    I did do some tests with my square on the table.. It is surprisingly quite square and I found you can tweak the squareness with the hold down bolts... If as Tyrone advises you bolt it down, I would probably be able to put an arch in the machines bed to counter the bed wear if it was bolted down..

    Took some video of it in action... Will try to get a vid uploaded later on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Looks like the " Belgian " machine in the traction engine video could be a " Pegard " . It doesn't look like a " Forges De Gilly ". That's another set up that would benefit from being pushed up against " slot stops ". I wonder why he's running the spindle in reverse.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Yes it is a Pegard... I only just found that brand name today, and that video came up in one of the searches I did...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20140414_193932.jpg   20140414_184443.jpg   20140414_181021.jpg   20140414_162141.jpg  

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