gothis style steam enginr 1839
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    Default gothis style steam enginr 1839

    greeting
    I just joined the forum looking for advice on how to proceed on a 3D model I have been building. Once I have the model completer I will 3D print the parts and build the model. At this time I am stuch on how to attach the condenser to the exhaust of the cylinder.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails e705e.jpg   engine71.jpg   e705b.jpg   e705a.jpg  

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    here are some modeled parts the cylinder
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails cylinder5-16c.jpg   cylinder5-16b.jpg   cylinder5-16a.jpg  

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    the lever arm
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lever4.jpg   lever3.jpg   lever2.jpg   lever1.jpg  

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    CAD drawing
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails engine-62519.jpg  

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    valve chest
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lvc4.jpg   lvc3.jpg   lvc2.jpg   lvc1.jpg  

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    daves101:

    I am a dinosaur, and working with computer software and modelling programs such as you are doing is the stuff of science fiction to people of my generation. However, I think I can offer an answer to you about how to attach the exhaust of the engine to the condenser. Bear in mind that the steam cylinders and steam chest are tied to the mainframe of the engine. The condenser on marine steam engines is usually connected to the exhaust from the low pressure steam chest by means of a larger diameter pipe or cast iron duct depending on engine design. The large diameter pipes were often made of copper. This was done because back in the day, stainless steels did not exist, nor did welding. Copper pipe was easily formable, and could be forge brazed to join it to flanges. It also had some "give" or ability to flex to allow for relative movement between the engine and the condenser. Cast iron "ducts" were used on some of the triple expansion marine steam engines where the condenser shell was often a part of the mainframe of the engine.

    A design you might want to look into was used on walking beam steam engines on sidewheel steamboats. This design was used by a famous builder of walking beam marine engines called W & A Fletcher & Sons, of Hoboken, NJ. Their design took into account the fact that the engine cylinder and steam chest would be at different temperatures, so expand different amounts when in operation. It also took into account the fact there had to be some "give" in the connection between the exhaust flange on the steam chest and the condenser shell inlet. If there was no "give" there would be no way to spring the piping to install or remove it. In addition, making things up solidly would put a strain on the connections (cast iron in those days, so more prone to breakage). What Fletchers did was to use a diaphragm type of joint. They made larger diameter pipe flanges on the exhaust steam connection and incorporated a diaphragm- shaped like a large washer- made of thin plate steel. The outer circumference of this diaphragm plate was secured to the condenser inlet, and the smaller inner diameter (the hole in the "washer") of the diaphragm was secured to the exhaust connection on the engine. The diaphragm plate looked like a large washer with concentric rings of bolt holes to make up to the two flanged connections. Since exhaust steam to a condenser is generally under a partial vacuum, there was no need for a thick or heavy steel diaphragm plate. Probably something on the order of 3/16"-1/4" plate was plenty thick. It was an ingenious way to make a flexible connection in the days before corrugated stainless steel bellows joints. In more modern times, the connections between engine or steam turbine exhausts and the condensers were made using corrugated stainless steel bellows joints to allow for this same relative movement or flexing.

    Your call as to what you want to use, and quite honestly, from your computer renderings of the engine, I do not see where the condenser is going to be located. On a walking beam steam engine, the condenser was usually located off to a side and definitely below the level of the steam chest, with the hotwell as the lowest point of all.

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    There are several older threads on this forum about pumping engines .
    I notice that you are from Ohio so if you could pay a visit to the water works in Cincinnati or in Hamilton Ontario perhaps you could get to look at how they are set up for your self if your circumstances would permit .
    Here are a few links that may give you some ideas or places to contact for info and photos or visit.
    Some of the threads are old so some of the links may no longer work and photos may have disappeared .
    Steam Engines (Large) Existing in the USA
    Hamilton Museum of Steam & Technology National Historic Site | City of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

    Cincinnati Water Works

    Triples at Kempton

    Shifting Sewage by Steam in Suburban Shrewsbury (Shropshire)

    Another sewage pumping station

    Regards,
    Jim

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    I am a dinosaur, and working with computer software and modelling programs such as you are doing is the stuff of science fiction to people of my generation.

    hum joe I am older than you

    my grandson is in college studying civil engineering I asked him how it was going and his reply was well there is a lot of CAD and 3D modeling and having to understand and work with the software. so much different than the old ways of drafting you would not understand it

    I said not only do I understand it but it is my generation who invented it your generation is just learning what we invented.

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    Their design took into account the fact that the engine cylinder and steam chest would be at different temperatures, so expand different amounts when in operation. It also took into account the fact there had to be some "give" in the connection between the exhaust flange on the steam chest and the condenser shell inlet. If there was no "give" there would be no way to spring the piping to install or remove it. In addition, making things up solidly would put a strain on the connections (cast iron in those days, so more prone to breakage). What Fletchers did was to use a diaphragm type of joint.

    \looking at the original drawings of the condenser the draftsman had a pipe marked delivery A with a 'gland" and "bonnet" I assumed that was some sort of expansion joint

    so this is how I modeled the condenser
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gland.jpg   condenserm10.jpg   condenserm1.jpg   condenserm4.jpg   condenserm9.jpg  


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    Your call as to what you want to use, and quite honestly, from your computer renderings of the engine, I do not see where the condenser is going to be located. On a walking beam steam engine, the condenser was usually located off to a side and definitely below the level of the steam chest, with the hotwell as the lowest point of all.

    here are some early constructions models of the engine. the bedplate had and open area that went to the hot well below the condenser

    the cylinder was at the end then a space for the valve chests and the condenser. you can see that delivery A which I assume is where the exhaust from the cylinder would go
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails e-cylinder7.jpg   condenser-a1.jpg   bpfw.jpg   engine.jpg   condenser-a5.jpg  


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    The condenser on marine steam engines is usually connected to the exhaust from the low pressure steam chest by means of a larger diameter pipe or cast iron duct depending on engine design.

    on the original drawing there is a pipe marked delivery A with a bonnet and gland which I suspect is a type of expansion joint.

    here is a model of the condenser

    also the CAD drawing of the condenser
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails gland.jpg   condenserm9.jpg   condenserm4.jpg   condenserm1.jpg   condenserm10.jpg  


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    the CAD drawing of the condenser
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2.jpg  

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    a CAD drawing before 3d modeling

    here a pipe with flanges at the elbows went from the exhaust column of the cylinder to the side of the condenser which has an expansion joint of the gland and bonnet

    I had to draw in the side lever arm to make sure it did not hit the piping on the up swing.
    when I drew the piping from a top view I thought hum that is a lot of pipe sticking out, so I wonder if there was a direct likn between the cylinder and the condenser?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lever-test1.jpg   exhaust-7-11.jpg  

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    daves101:

    Thanks for posting the more detailed drawings. Here is what I come up with from them:

    1. The condenser pre-dates the shell-and-tube type of condenser, and also pre-dates the "jet" type of condensers.

    2. The condenser is a direct-contact type, where the exhaust steam is brought into direct contact with a cascade of cooler or cold water.

    3. The larger connection on the condenser which lines up with the exhaust on the engine cylinder used what is known as a "slip joint". The slip joint allowed the connection to be made up without straining or moving either the engine cylinder or the condenser. With the engine cylinder and condenser in place on the bedplate, there was no way a rigid "spool" of pipe with a flange at each end was going to be fitted in place, let alone with gaskets on the seating surfaces of each flange.

    The slip joint consists of two separate pieces of exhaust pipe, each with a flange on one end. These flanges connect to the flanges on the engine cylinder and the condenser inlet. We will call these two pieces the "male" and "female" sections.

    4. The male section of pipe is nothing more than a stub of pipe with a flange on one end. The outer diameter of this chunk of pipe is machined to a consistent outer diameter.

    5. The female section contains a "stuffing box" and packing gland into which the male section of pipe fits. To guide the male section, the balance of the female section of pipe is bored to a slip fit with the male section. The two pipes "telescope" one into the other. The stuffing box is packed with rings of braided packing such as was used on the piston and valve rods of the engine. Stud bolts are used to draw the gland into the stuffing box to compress and expand the packing.

    6. The whole assembly would be made of cast iron, since the slip joint allows for movement between the engine cylinder and condenser, and no flexing of the exhaust pipe is going to occur.

    7. Packed slip joints are still used on some piping to allow for expansion/contraction or to facilitate installation in tight fitups.

    I am sure if you look up "slip joints" for piping, you will get a better idea of what I've tried to convey with words. Confucius got it right.

    BTW: the condenser on your engine is likely a fore-runner of what came to be known as a "barometric" type of condenser. The "jet" and "barometric" condenser used direct contact between exhaust steam and cooling water to condense the steam. The result was more water wound up in the hotwell and there was some overflow.

    The condensing of the steam produced some fairly small amount of partial vacuum in the design of condenser you have shown.

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    On edit, having seen the very last set of drawings you posted while I was typing the reply about the slip joint:

    If you can locate the condenser exhaust steam connection on the same centerline as the exhaust steam outlet connection on the engine cylinder, a short "spool" of pipe with the slip joint will work well. Just be sure to allow some space in your design for the length of the slip joint with its packing gland and stud bolts. Normally, enough space is allowed between the packing gland and the nearest flange on the exhaust pipe to allow for sliding the gland out of the stuffing box to repack the joint. This allows for repacking the slip joint without having to take the whole exhaust pipe assembly out of its location. Being able to re-pack a slip joint in place was a very important consideration in this sort of design. Typically, at least three (3), and more preferably four (4) rings of braided packing would be used on this sort of slip joint. Not sure if square braided packing materials existing in the 1830's. Could have been packed in true "stuffing box" fashion (hence the name), by "stuffing" in stranded packing material such as Oakum or flax or hemp coated with tallow. That would have been about right for the time period. Allowing a minimum of 1/2" of annular space between the male exhaust pipe section and the inner walls of the stuffing box would be a starting point in your design, and perhaps 3-4" of actual packing length.

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    2. The condenser is a direct-contact type, where the exhaust steam is brought into direct contact with a cascade of cooler or cold water.



    the question I would have is where did the cooler water come from? This engine was built for the steam ship Mississippi the first ocean going naval vessel. you would not be able to pump salt water into the condenser and mix it with the steam. From research I have done you can not use salt water in a steam engine. So my thought is a condenser where cool salt water is pumped through piping and when the steam hits the cooler pipes it would condense.

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    daves101:

    We are dealing with an 1830's steam engine. Your drawings do not show a "surface condenser". A surface condenser is the shell-and-tube type. In a surface condenser, the steam is directed into the shell of the condenser, and the cooling water passes thru the tubes. In order to work properly, a steam surface condenser has a LOT of small diameter tubes. Even a small surface condenser would have had a few hundred small diameter tubes. The tubes are made of a copper alloy, and one in particular, named "Admiralty metal" was developed early on for condenser tubes on sea going vessels. The tubes are rolled (expanded) into the tube sheets.

    A surface condenser has "nests of tubes" with "steam lanes" between them (spaces between clusters of tubes) to direct the steam onto all of the tubes in the condenser. A surface condenser also has "waterboxes". These are box shaped (or semi-circular, or whatever the design called for) housings which bolt up to the tube sheets. Cooling water (known as "circulating water" whether aboard ship or on land) is pumped into one water box, makes a pass thru the tubes and goes out the other water box on the other side of the condenser shell.

    Look over your drawings and see if there are two (2) pipe connections aside from the exhaust steam inlet and condensate discharge.

    Getting back to an 1830's mindset, it was not unheard of to run seawater into boilers. Boilers operated at extremely low pressures in those days. Questions and answers for marine engineers from the mid 1800's will often speak of using seawater as makeup feed in an emergency to get a ship's plant going again. Bear in mind that a sea going ship would carry makeup water in tanks. I do not know anything about the "Mississippi". From the era, I would guess it was a wooden hulled vessel with a rig for sails as well as the paddlewheels/steam engine. Early vessels of this era relied on sails moreso than the steam plants as they sometimes could not carry enough coal for long voyages.

    I am no historian, but from the looks of your drawings, I would not be surprised if you are dealing with a direct-contact type of condenser. If we consider the "Mississippi" as one of those vessels that was primarily a sailing ship with a steam plant, we think of the steam plant similar to the auxiliary engine on a modern sailing vessel. This means the plant did not run continuously, or ran at low load to augment the sails. If we continue the line of thinking that the condenser was a direct contact condenser, then we wind up with a condensate that is diluted sea water. As the steam plant would continue to be run, the salinity of the condensate is going to rise, so fresh makeup water from the ship's tankage would be introduced into the system. Again, remember this is the 1830's. Steam propulsion was a relatively new technology, and low working pressures were the norm. Even boiler designs were still being developed for marine, stationary and railroad applications. KNowledge of things like boiler water chemistry was in its infancy, if it existed at all. A lot of crazy folk wisdom (if you could call it that) was in use in all areas of steam power back then. Water treatment, if it existed, often consisted of putting tanbark in the hotwell or putting anything else that was being talked about at the time. A low pressure boiler would "salt up" in time, even with running diluted sea water as feedwater. When the ship made port, the boilers would be opened for cleaning. Again, this is the 1830's, and the more traditional firetube boilers had not come into being. A boiler like the Scotch Marine type of firetube boiler would be impossible to clean the "waterside" between all the firetubes, or the rear and sides of the combustion chamber. An early marine boiler might well have taken its design from something like a Lancashire boiler. A man could get in via a manway and scale off the inner walls of the boiler barrel, the outer surfaces of the furnaces, and "punch out" the cross tubes. This would be a regular job whenever the ship tied up in port and the boilers could be cooled down and opened up. Again, think like you were in the 1830's. Crazy folk wisdom prevailed, and one source suggested adding kerosene to a boiler to help soften the scale. Imagine you were a crewman in the black gang on that ship. As soon as the boilers had cooled down sufficiently, you wriggled in a manway, took a stump of a candle for light, and started scraping off the accumulated salt/scale from the inner surfaces of the boiler. Your only safety device was your candle. If it went out, you did not have enough oxygen in the ambient air inside that boiler. Hopefully, you would still be conscious and able to get to the manway and out of the boiler to survive.

    Salt/scale in a marine boiler in the 1830's was probably a fact of life. In a wooden hulled ship, the tankage was limited. No double bottoms or tankage integral with the ship's hull. They could have carried makeup water in wooden hogsheads or similar.

    Next, we have to ask where and how the circulating water made it into the condenser. The answer is a circulating pump. This is known aboard ships as a "condenser circulator", and even in more advanced steam days, was a centrifugal pump driven by its own steam engine. On older vessels, the circulator would be a plunger or piston type of pump driven by some kind of "monkey motion" (another marine engineer's term) from the crosshead of the main engine. The circulator would have a large bore pump cylinder and flapper valves like a shallow well pump. It had to move large volumes of water to condense the steam. The circulator took suction from overboard (thru the hull) and there would have been a "sea chest" bolted to the inside of the ship's hull. There would have been a large diameter circulating water suction pipe, and an isolation valve located right at or close to the thru hull fitting. Possibly, the sea chest would also have a cleanable strainer. The sea chest would be made of cast bronze, and the circulating water piping- even well into the 20th century- would be large diameter/thin walled copper. Some of this pipe was made by rolling copper plate to form the pipe and using lapped/riveted seams. Flanged joints were used. A common method of attaching a pipe flange in the pre-welding/pre-torch brazing days was to use a "floating flange". A bronze flange bored to slip onto the copper circulating water pipe would be made a radius on the edge of the bore on the seating face of the flange. The copper pipe would be flared so that the end of the pipe was formed over this radius and flanged flat. This surface was then filed and scraped to flatness to make a good seating for a gasket. In later years, this became known as a "van Stone joint".

    If you put your mindset in the 1830's, think in terms of not having any portable power tools- no hand held power drills or grinders, no magnetic based drills, no air die grinders. In the machine shop you had basic lathes, boring mills, drill presses, and planers and shapers. No vertical mills, probably no horizontal mills, and all cutting tools were likely hand forged in the shop. Drills might well have been hand forged "spade" type drills. If a casting could not be gotten into a machine tool for machining a surface, it was done in place by hand. Old accounts of shop work from this era recall having to manually finish the port faces on steam cylinders since no method existed for machining them. A machinist or apprentice would use a hammer and cape chisel to rough=down the port face to something near final dimension and relative flatness. After that, it was a matter of filing and hand scraping. Steam ports were finished out by these same methods.

    Brazing for joining some of the copper pipe and fittings was done in a forge fire using "spelter" (a mixture of copper and zinc and maybe some tin- roughly equivalent to today's 'low fuming bronze' brazing alloys).

    N

    Think like the 1830's and you will be ahead of the game with your engine design.

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    thank you joe for your posts by the way I was born in 1948

    the Mississippi was indeed a wooden hull sailing ship with a steam engine

    anyhow I have been working on this engine for a year now most of the time trying to figure out the sheets of drawings and what I am looking at. The original drawings are quite large 3 and 4 feet and huge in megabytes.
    here are the 2 sheets for the condenser I broke them down into smaller sections so they could be posted and so you can see detail.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails con0.jpg   con1.jpg   con2.jpg   con3.jpg   con4.jpg  


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    and the last section to the plan sheet above
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails con5.jpg  

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    and the second sheet
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails cona0.jpg   cona1.jpg   cona2.jpg   cona3.jpg   cona4.jpg  



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