gothis style steam enginr 1839 - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    and now we can take a walk around the engine and see the condenser from different views
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails cap1a.jpg   cap2a.jpg   capa3.jpg   capa5.jpg   capa6.jpg  


  2. #22
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    a few more views
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capa9.jpg   capa8.jpg   cap7.jpg  

  3. #23
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    I got stuck with the re engineering of the engine with the exhaust from the cylinder to the condenser.
    this engine was designed by Charles Copeland in 1839 then 10 years later he built another gothic style engine for the steamer Pacific.

    notice in the second engine pointed to by the arrow it looks like a direct casting linking the cylinder exhaust to the condenser. This is the Pacific engine built in 1849

    the second engine also built the same year 1849

    this was a stumbling block as to how the 1839 engine was configured? a direct link OR was piping used like I did in the cad drawing.
    the last image is a French engine and the pink area looks like a direct link into the condenser

    maybe piping was an old style later to be replaced with a direct link
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails arctic.jpg   d550.jpg   part-f.jpg   exhaust-7-11.jpg  

  4. #24
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    one mistake I made when doing the piping from the T connection on the valve chest column to the condenser the t connection was lower than the bonnet on the side of the condenser.
    when I drew the lever arm I realized the arm would hit the piping on the up swing. to correct this I moved the T higher on the column.
    It was this that made me wonder maybe there is no piping at all and a direct link was used like in the examples above. But if that were the case why did Copeland draw a bonnet and gland on the side of the condenser?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails vtoc1.jpg   vtoc2.jpg   exhaust-7-11.jpg  

  5. #25
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    Joe I tried to send you a private message but got an error because youe messages are full and wont take anymore PM me perhaps an email so I can contact you on a team of guys working on this engine

  6. #26
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    daves101:

    I'm impressed: you have two years on me and you are in step with the modern computer software for CAD and 3-D printing. I looked over the latest scans of the drawings.
    What I got from it is that there are two condensers- one for each cylinder. A slip joint with stuffing box is shown on the second sheet of your transmittal.

    what I also got from your last few pages of drawings is that this IS a surface condenser. It DOES have tubes. The tube nests are kind of small in size, and the tube sheets are rectangular. From what I can see, the condenser shell has a baffle plate in it to direct the steam against the tubes. What you will need to determine is if there was a circulating pump built onto the engine itself. Given the design of the condenser shells, the bottom portions of the condenser shells would serve as a kind of "hotwell" to store condensate. Typically, there would be a "wet air pump" ( a "bucket" type of plunger pump) driven off the beam of the engine to pull a partial vacuum on the condenser and move the condensate from the hotwell in the condenser into an open feedwater tank. In this open tank, there would be a baffle with holes at the bottom, and a weir. In the open tank, the water and any "tramp oil" (steam cylinder oil) would stratify. The condensate would enter the first compartment of the open tank and have to flow thru the holes at the bottom of the baffle plate to fill the next compartment. This would give the oil a chance to rise to the top of the first compartment. A variety of materials would be in place such as towelling, sponges, or straw to try to absorb the oil. The water would then rise in the next compartment and eventually spill over the weir. More absorbent material would be places along the weir to absorb any oil that made it that far. The water spilled over the weir into the last compartment, where a connection was made to supply the boiler feed pumps.

    Your drawings answered a lot of questions for me. I learned that surface condensers were in use by the 1830's, which makes perfect sense for an oceangoing vessel.
    Chances are in that era, the condenser tubes may well have been copper rather than a brass or bronze alloy. The tube sheets may well have been some bronze alloy. The drawings are small on my computer screen and a bit hard to read some of the writing on them, but I was able to learn quite a bit from them. Thanks for the opportunity to study and learn about the older steam engine design. I tend to "specialize" in steam engines of the late 19th and into the 20th century, so this engine is quite interesting to study. I can appreciate the size of the drawings. When I do engineering on steam locomotive boilers, the drawings are sometimes about 6 feet long. I wind up pulling some boards across sawhorses to roll out the drawings so I can work off them. Of course, our cats decide that the best place to be is right in the middle of the drawings, and right where I am needing to check dimensions or notes. When I do other engineering work and am making drawings, or running calculations, one of our cats has to right in the middle of the paperwork. I joke with my clients that they will get "two stampings for the price of one"- namely, I will often be stamping my drawings or calculations with my Professional Engineer's seal, and a paw print from the cat would be the second stamping. Where were you able to obtain the drawings ? I consider the old engineering drawings to be art in their own right, and the gothic design of the engine is certainly "functional art". You have undertaken quite a project and my hat is off to you for it.

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    I'm impressed: you have two years on me and you are in step with the modern computer software for CAD and 3-D printing.

    it was kind of a forced issue I worked in the graphic arts and printing trade. I an a trained draftsman and a commercial artist but when CAD came along us older guys either learn or get replaced.

    as far as seeing details in the drawings I do have them available on google drive for downloading they are quite large but you can zoom way in and actually see the pin prick from a compass in the center of circles.
    I would need to send you a link to the files if you want to look at all the drawings

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    Gothic Style US Navy Side Beam Engine - 1839 (for first naval steam frigate "Mississippi") | Page 22 | Steam Engine Design, Construction and Preservation

    you can also go to this forum and if you join the forum you can see larger images and finer details. This is a small group of guys working on re engineering this engine with the idea in mind to 3d print it as a working model. but it is much harder than expected.

    I did post your replies from here to there because the information is just what we are looking for. BUT if you want I can remove them because I did ask but your message thing is full so I did go ahead.

    the original plans are from the national archives and like I said we are willing to share them along with all the research we collected.

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    there are a lot of sheets in the original collection and parts we have no idea what they are or where they go.
    very interesting project trying to re engineer an engine Charles Copeland did back in 1839

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    if I remove everything off the bedplate this is what you see under the condenser and air pump
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails bp1.jpg   bp2.jpg   bp3.jpg   bp4.jpg  

  12. #31
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    I can’t help with Dave’s specific queries, but hats off to Joe for spotting the evidence of a surface condenser in the old drawings.

    The case for surface condensers in seagoing ships was overwhelming. By minimising the amount of salt water getting into the boilers, the need for shutting down the boiler for frequent descaling was dramatically reduced. Samuel Hall saw the benefits and in 1834 he not only patented a surface condenser, but he also included a ‘steam saver’ to condense the steam escaping the safety valves, and an evaporator to produce distilled water from sea water. Surface condensers quickly caught on, but then fell out of favour for many years, mainly because of fouling of the tubes by the tallow used as a cylinder lubricant.

    In 'A Short History of Naval and Marine Engineering' by E. C. Smith there’s a drawing of a side lever engine with a surface condenser. Its tubes are vertical, and as far as I can make out the steam enters at the top of the tubenest and passes down the tubes, the seawater being outside the tubes. Other condensers could have the sea water passing through the tubes and the steam on the outside.

    I was also interested to see the drawing of the French engine in post #23. I recognised the engine from a remarkable model I saw at the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris a few months ago. see photo below. It’s a big model, 4 ft high, superbly made in Paris in 1843. The original engine was made by Fawcett, Preston and Co of Liverpool for the French warship ‘Sphinx’. Afterwards the engine was copied in France for other vessels.

    jd-2019-cnam-side-lever-engine06.jpg

    Unfortunately I didn’t spend long enough studying the model, so there are things I don’t understand. I assume that condensation took place in a chamber in the bedplate, but my photos don’t show the all-important clue which would be provided by the seawater supply or the diffuser.

    For more photos, see here:-

    PS Sphinx: Side Lever Engine - Graces Guide

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    the bonnet and gland on the side of the condenser on the plan says delivery A
    I assumed that is where the steam enters from the cylinder
    but looking at the photos and illustration now I question that because of the pipe that runs out of the condenser to the side of the hull. But if it A is that pipe then I am back to trying to figure out how the steam is entering the condenser. if indeed delivery A is the inlet for the steam problem solved.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails con2.jpg   img054.jpg   spside_lever_engine12.jpg   condenserm4.jpg   capa6.jpg  


  14. #33
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    I can’t help with Dave’s specific queries, but hats off to Joe for spotting the evidence of a surface condenser in the old drawings.

    when you zoom way in on the drawing it does not mention "tubes" just holes 3/4 dia spaced 1 1/8 inch center to center unless these are end plates and tubes are run through the holes from plate to plate creating a heat exchanger of some sort.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails plate1.jpg   plate2.jpg   plate3.jpg  

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    where I am at this point of the design is the link from the exhaust column to the condenser here are 2 options
    the first drawing is nothing more than a box with a flange on both ends that bolt to the exhaust column and the side of the condenser. The second drawing is piping from the exhaust column to a bonnet and gland on the side of the condenser.
    My concern with the first is the box being bolted to the column and condenser and the expansion between the two. The exhaust column fits into a bonnet and gland at the top of the valve box for movement of the column, but if the colum is bolted to the condenser what's the point of a gland
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails exhause7-19.jpg   exhaust-7-11.jpg  
    Last edited by daves101; 07-20-2019 at 09:47 AM.

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    I have been looking at the condenser drawings and the parts shown on the plans, trying to re engineer it.

    first there are 2 chambers a pink one and a blue one the lighter areas in the walls are open. In the pink chamber the top is open to the cooling tower and on the side open to the bonnet and gland.

    the blue chamber has 2 openings

    between these 2 chambers it looks like a plate or plates resting on a angled brace
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails reservoir2.jpg  

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    on the drawing are 2 plates with holes these plates fit side by side between the 2 chambers and sit on the support
    the question is why is there a big hole in one of the plates?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails reservoir3.jpg  

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    moving on to the next part on the drawing
    this part fits right in the lower opening
    now I am wondering if some sort of fitting bolts to the outside wall from a water pump
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails reservoir4.jpg   reservoir5.jpg   condenserm2.jpg  

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    looking on the outside I have the bonnet and gland which opens to the pink chamber and the opening that opens into the blue chamber. One of these is the exhaust from the cylinder

    anyone have an educated guess which one?

    posted are the original drawings

    I am leaning to the piped exhaust I posted earlier because the pink chamber does open to the cooling tower and steam when condensed creates a vacuum. like the video shows

    YouTube
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails reservoir6.jpg  

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    I just might be totally wrong because I do not understand the drawing and how it works so I am actually just guessing.

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    I think that you would not need a slip joint on the condenser with a piped connection as the pipe would just move away from the condenser freely. The slip joint would have to be in the center of the pipe to allow for expansion. Since the slip joint is drawn on the condenser I would think that the condenser was connected directly to the steam outlet.


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