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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post

    If anyone may have a set of W&S hard jaws laying about, I whipped up a diagram from the "Tools" booklet, showing the relevant dimensions:




    I posted this on another site, but in case you didn't see it there going by your measurements it looks like Bison top jaws for their 10" 3-jaw should fit. All the critical mating features match.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClappedOutBport View Post
    Rather than fool with finding hard-to-find top jaws, wouldn't it have been easier to buy a brand new or lightly used plain-back 3 jaw (might as well get a set-tru while you're at it) and just machine a backplate?
    That was the original plan.

    As above, I suspect I probably won't actually be using a chuck much at all, regardless- after all, I have three other lathes in the shop, so it's not like I need to stretch the capabilities of this one into engine-lathe duties.

    But I liked the idea of having one just in case- the collets only go up to 1-1/4", and due to the design, it's not really possible to have a large head "extra capacity" collet.

    So for the possibility at some point I'd want to do a run of something out of larger stock, I thought having a chuck would be useful. The vague idea for a while there was to just grab a 6" or 8" chuck (new or used) and probably have the local metal shop cut me a thick disc of steel I could turn into a backing plate.

    And I haven't ruled that out- this 9" chuck is actually quite heavy, both having to mount/dismount it, and having to start and stop the spindle on a regular basis. (I have no real idea how good my clutches are, or how much extra wear and tear spinning up an 80-pound chuck will add.) A 6" chuck would be lighter and easier to handle, and still likely do anything I need it to.

    But when I ran across this one, an original W&S, factory-made to fit my machine, I tossed 'em a lowball offer and was kind of surprised that it was accepted.

    If I can find some jaws that fit, so much the better. If I only use it with soft jaws, well, I may wind up doing that anyway.

    Doc.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    Details, details...
    Oh, right, a backsplash... was gonna do that too... Hmmm...

    Doc.
    Heresy, I am sure, but at least "for temporary" (Aluminum 'dianond plate', later... mayhap?)

    This stuff was cheap, handy, and had already proven itself insanely durable in a high-traffic entrance foyer.

    At least it ain't Chinese, so I didn't feel compelled to tell the French Cazeneuve that DuPont makes it in Spain:

    TRAVERTINE LAMINATE FLOORING - LAMINATE FLOORING - BAMBOO FLOOR RUNNER

  4. #324
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    Had some time this evening, so thought I'd take a moment to see what I could do with this chuck.



    W&S chucks have this interesting 'collar' arrangement to retain the pinions. First, remove the retaining screw, and then unscrew the collar. They're numbered, so keep the parts in order.



    Then, using a magnet, draw the pinion itself out.



    Besides six bolts in from the back, this unit also had three coming in from the front. I found some longer bolts, and screwed those in partway, and used those to tap on with a bronze hammer to push the back plate off.



    Came out fairly easily, and apparently somebody had cleaned and regreased this thing sometime fairly recently.



    Then, just grabbing the back plate by the bore, I set it up in the Sheldon, and with a little care, picked up the thread with a boring bar with a 60-degree triangular insert.



    And, running the tool back and forth by hand, I was able to chase the threads fairly cleanly, picking up several spots that had indeed been 'dinged' over the years.

    After a few light passes, I was indeed able to screw it on fully and snugly.



    It's still a touch stiff for part of the threads, but free enough I can thread it on if the headstock is in low gear. I may try one more light pass in the morning- again, by hand- but it's usable now, as-is.

    I'll run the pieces through the parts washer and apply fresh grease again before reassembling. After that, if I have a bit of time this weekend, I may gin up a preliminary set of steel soft jaws as well.

    Doc.

  5. #325
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    Hey Doc,
    Good score on the chuck.. The top jaws should be American Standard and are available where ever chucks are sold... Lots of soft jaws and stuff like that for them out there in the world. I even have a set made up to take 1129 ( #4 ) collets for my ten inch bison chuck.
    Hey just a side bar.. Did ya get the schematics I sent ya ? I didn't drop a note in with em' as I have be bust as can be.
    Stay safe
    Calvin B

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin b View Post
    The top jaws should be American Standard and are available where ever chucks are sold.
    -There are, indeed. But most new ones run around $300 a set, which is more than I paid for the chuck itself. As I've said, if the chuck was due to be my primary means of workholding, I'd probably spring for them. But I suspect that not only will I not be using the chuck much, but when I do it'll be with one form or another of soft jaws.

    I really only picked up the chuck for the possibility I might at some point run a batch of parts larger than the collet capacity.

    As such, I can afford to be patient and hope a good deal floats by.

    Lots of soft jaws and stuff like that for them out there in the world.
    -Soft jaws I can make. I have a drawerful already, in steel and aluminum. That part isn't an issue- and was the main consolation in buying a chuck with no top jaws.

    Did ya get the schematics I sent ya?
    -I did, and I thought I sent you a PM letting you know. Maybe I only thought I thought I sent you a PM.

    In any case, thank you, sir. I forwarded photographs to the fellow putting together a set of starters for me, and I believe they were indeed of some benefit.

    Doc.

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    Chuck is back together, clean and freshly re-lubed, and screws on smoothly- albeit still ever so slightly snugly, which is not necessarily a bad thing.



    Pretty much all I had time for, if I do anything with some soft jaws, it'll have to be later this week.

    Doc.

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  9. #328
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    Doc, you might try this place: https://buyandsellcnc.com/, he doesn't just sell CNC equipment,he has a wealth of parts, conventional machine tools, chucks and jaws,and more tooling than you can shake a stick at. The company that i work for has bought several pieces of equipment from him and i use them daily. (not personally connected other than a satisfied customer that appreciates an honest straightforward vendor) He may have what you are looking for. Jim

  10. #329
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    Thanks for the tip JM, I'll definitely check them out for other tooling. But on this chuck, Small Tools had a used set of jaws in stock, that I think will work just fine.

    I also found some steel soft jaws on eBay for only about $10 more than the steel will cost me, so I'll eventually grab a set of those, too.

    So for the moment I think I'm pretty well covered. Thanks to everyone who offered help and advice.

    Doc.

  11. #330
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    As I'm about done with this machine, save for the mag starters, I'm down to just some detail work. One such, of a rapidly-dwinding list, is this. 6" x 1" bar bandsawed off at 5"...



    Marked, drilled and counterbored...



    Pocketed on the rotary table...



    Corners rounded...



    More corners rounded...



    And the last corners rounded...



    Mildly sanded...



    And installed.



    As I won't be using the factory power-closer arrangement, this cover protects the clutch remnant and finishes it off, making it look a little more complete.

    I'll finish sanding it smooth and probably paint it, the next time I have to so some other parts. Prob'ly engrave "Doc Wuz Here!" inside, too.

    Doc.

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  13. #331
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    The last two things to do to this machine are the electrics, and the coolant/cutting oil pump. A fellow PM'er is putting together a mag-starter for me, so that's just waiting for him to finish up.

    That leaves me the pump.

    On this machine, it's an external pump driven off the headstock oil pump, located behind said headstock.



    No, I didn't fully clean and paint back there. That was one of a few things on this machine I listed under "If it ain't broke, don't break it!"

    Note the blocked ports. All the rest of the plumbing, from the sump to whatever spout arrangement this thing once had, was entirely missing. The passage to the sump had been plugged with a turned steel cap (not threaded) and the pump blocked off.

    The manual notes that if the pump is not being used for an extended period, to disconnect it from the drive, by sliding the coupler collar back. Which it had been on this unit.



    And long enough ago it was probably prior to its last paint job, which from the condition of the old paint, was anywhere from 20 to 40 years ago. Maybe more.

    My main worry here was that whoever used the pump last, may have run soluble-oil coolant in it, and the blocked-off pump may have had a small amount of water in it... for the last 20 to 40 years.

    When I'd opened up the sump, as noted several pages back, I didn't get out any water or rust, save for a tiny bit of water that had certainly gotten in there due to the fact it was raining the day it was delivered to me. It was, in fact, full of old, smelly oil and a ton of gunk and swarf.

    I hoped that meant the last user had oil in it and not water-based coolant, but had no way to know except to pop it off of there and crack it open.

    Thankfully, I got out some good, clean, amber oil of some flavor, that was neither smelly nor full of gunk.



    The gears, housing and shaft all looked pristine. No rust, no evidence of past rust, no scoring, no significant wear, zero damage.

    So I popped the rest apart, and will run everything through the parts washer as time permits. Nothing needs any repair, so I'll just clean, strip and repaint the parts and reassemble.



    As for the rest of the plumbing, I was given access to a fair supply of used 3/4" stainless Swagelok fittings:



    A few of those bits should be usable, but I need to sit down and draw up actual plans, first. And I may need to order a few other bits, like a strainer, and probably a chunk of Loc-Line... maybe a valve...

    Does anyone still make those old style spouts with the round knuckles?

    Doc.
    Last edited by DocsMachine; 10-28-2020 at 05:02 AM.

  14. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    Prob'ly engrave "Doc Wuz Here!" inside, too.

    Doc.
    LOL! I onct had a thousand ballpoints and several hundred dead-tree-book stickers printed up:

    "STOLEN FROM ..." and my name!

    Dare yah!


  15. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    Does anyone still make those old style spouts with the round knuckles?
    Doc.
    Send address to jrr(zero) at us (dot) ibm (dot) com and I'll mail you the NOS one from a hardinge ESM 59. Might be a bit undersized but would be period for this.

    It's a number zero in the address...

  16. #334
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    Mostly brass under the ugly green paint. 12 inch scale for ref. Yours if you want it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails esm59_coolant_arm.jpg  

  17. #335
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    Email sent, sir, thank you!

    The original ones for my machine, going back to at lest as far as WW2 according to the photos, are the style with the round "hockey puck" shaped knuckles.

    Not that I'm trying to do a concours style restoration here, but I do kind of like that style better than the typical modern Loc-Line.

    However, looking around, it seems no one makes those anymore, and no one seems to even have any as parts, spares or scrap. There's a thread here on PM from a decade ago from Milacron, looking for one for one of his European machines. He couldn't find one then, save for another PM'er having one laying about.

    I can see them not being made anymore- Loc-Line is cheaper and easier to use- but why none available used or in parts? Am I just not using the right search terms? Or have they all rusted out from coolant use and have been tossed?

    Doc.

  18. #336
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    Not much to show at all, this go-round, still waiting on parts.

    Got the oil-pump bits cleaned up and mostly stripped of paint...



    But got hung up on the gaskets.



    They measure .0095" thick, and of course I don't have any material anywhere near that thin, and no one else in town does either.

    Even looking around online (though by no means exhausively) not many people carry anything thinner than 1/64th, which is of course .016".

    It's entirely possible these were at one time .016 and just compressed over the years, but the bolts that hold this thing together are pretty tiny, and didn't have a great deal of torque on them. On the other hand, this is, after all, just a cutting-oil pump, and not headstock oil, so I suspect a touch of extra clearance won't hurt a thing.

    I suppose I could just cut some out of craft paper (.008") and gasket-shellac the bejeebers out of it. But I just ordered some 1/64". I can't do anything else 'til the rest of my plumbing fittings get in, anyway, so no big.

    Not much else to tell, other than earlier this week I painted the rear ex-clutch cover...



    And just today (Saturday) got in the new chuck jaws from Small Tools.



    They fit perfectly and work just fine, although as you can see the face of the new jaws don't match the face of the old, master jaws. On the plus side, the new jaws are 'prouder' than the old, so at some point I could turn them lightly to match, and with a little care, even turn matching grooves.

    Won't worry about that too much just yet. I still need to check the runout of the new jaws, and chances are they'll need to be lightly turned or ground anyway.

    And of course at some point I'll need to make a new key. The one for the big 3-jaw from the Springfield works, but the shank is too short. It can really only be used exactly at the 12:00 position. I'll have to make one with both a slightly longer square end, and about a 2" to 3" longer shank.

    Stay tuned for more!

    Doc.

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  20. #337
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    Still waiting on some parts, and still have to reassemble the pump, but I got in the strainer and a couple other bits, so I could at least start on the oil line.

    First, I took one of the 3/4"-3/4" NPT fittings from that box of used bits, and bored it straight through.



    I then cleaned up one of the pre-bent J-tubes from that same box, cut the ferrule off the leg end, and fitted the whole mess to the new strainer. The leg fits through the bored-out fitting like so.



    The pickup-line hole in the tailstock-end leg had never been tapped- the original pipe just sat in there held in place by gravity. I wanted something a little more secure, so I tapped it to 3/4" NPT.



    It wound up slightly crooked, but not too bad considering I had to use a ratchet and a long extension to do it.

    Anyway, with the bored-out fitting in place, the J-tube fits through, and by eyeball it'll sit right about here, maybe a touch lower.



    And the draw tube will reach approximately here in the sump.



    I did want the end of the tube well above the bottom of the tank, so that it's not drawing up settled fines, and I do plan on keeping the sump very close to full, but I'm not yet convinced that's maybe not still a little too high.

    There's one other J-tube in that box that's maybe an inch, inch and a half longer, that might be a better choice. (For reference, the sump cleanout port there is roughly 6" in diameter.)

    But for the moment, I'll wait 'til the rest of the system is plumbed before I fix it in place.

    Doc.

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    Time to chuck this pump back together, but first, a little mechanical archaeology. First up, after stripping the multiple layers of old paint off we notice that one of the pieces of the pump body had, at one time, a tag on it.



    The rivets having the appearance of having the heads chiseled off. I can give no guess as to why. I'd be curious to know what that tag may have said...

    The drive coupler end of the pump shaft also shows considerable evidence of having been tampered with- well, maybe not "tampered", but clearly the coupler had been moved, readjusted and retightened a good many times.



    There's more setscrew-circles scattered about the non-flattened side of the shaft, as well as evidence that several of those divots had been filed back down. So clearly this machine has had a great deal of use, with frequent shifts between the use of oil/coolant and not.

    The pump impeller drive key has also been either replaced or repaired, as it shows unmistakeable signs of having been filed.



    And, most telling, the portion between the impeller and the bushing, has clearly been pitted by rust.



    So this thing HAS run water-based coolant in its life, and long enough for the shaft to get fairly rusty.

    Oddly enough, neither the impeller nor the idler (that is, the two gears that do the actual pumping) show the least sign of rust pitting. Could they have been replaced at some point in history? Certainly possible, but no way to tell.

    With that little distraction out of the way, all I really needed to do was make some gaskets. I had some Fel-Pro 1/64th paper, but it turned out to be so dry, that just trying to unroll it caused it to tear in multiple places.



    I took a slight gamble and gave each side of a potential part a quick spritz with off-brand Windex. That instantly loosened up the paper and made it far easier to work.



    And after a few minutes, the spray had dried, leaving the newly-made gaskets crisp and flat.



    With the gaskets, it just took a few moments to put the pump back together, with plenty of oil, and snug everything up.



    After that, two coats of self-etching primer...



    And then a coat of my Patented Machine Grey.



    Once that dries, I'll be able to mount the pump back onto the machine, but I'm still waiting on a couple more parts before I can finish plumbing it proper.

    Doc.

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  23. #339
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    tracking number 9534 6115 9646 0310 4437 76

    Did not have space in the box for the turning tool however. =(

  24. #340
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    Thank you, sir!

    Looking forward to checking it out. I'd already ordered some stainless and Loc-line before you mentioned it, so I plan to do a little experimenting to see which one works better for me. I like the look of the hardline better, but it is, after all, going to be a working machine...

    Doc.


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