How to correctly check axis squareness and level a G&L HBM.
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  1. #1
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    Default How to correctly check axis squareness and level a G&L HBM.

    Hello xltguy here.new member,third post. Been doing a lot of research,and not having much luck finding info on this topic.i have been working on a 70 series G&L for a few weeks now,repairing every issue I can find,I am getting close to squaring and leveling this old girl once the table,outriggers and rotary table are reinstalled. I would like to pick the brain of anyone who may have experience in this area. It is quite a large machine and would like to get it right the first time. Any advice would be appreciated.

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    Check the rollers for the outriggers for flat spots. Clean and grease as needed. Look at the wipers/scrappers front and rear of the rollers. Should be an adjustment for way/rail contact.
    Inspect the rails for wear. I had a pair so bad they had to be re-ground.
    On the 350T there were two leveling pads to set the column, at the base of the column opposite the operator and at the back of the column inside the cabinet if memory serves.
    The two diameter method for checking a lathe.......
    Here is the HBM version:
    Shop had a post about eight inches in diameter with two turned diameters (rings) equal in size and a plate on the bottom trued.
    Set upright on the table it is used to test the column square to the table/ways.
    John
    Last edited by jhruska; 10-01-2019 at 02:29 PM.

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    Xltguy --

    I can't give you any G&L-specific information, but by way of general information, my STRONG recommendation is 1) install your machine on a better-than-it-needs-to-be monolithic reinforced-concrete foundation, and 2) clean, deburr, and lubricate ALL mechanical interfaces of the level-adjustment and holddown hardware. Machine alignment is MUCH, MUCH easier when all the floor pads are well-bedded on the foundation and all of the adjustments operate smoothly.

    John

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    I agree with John about the foundations being vital on a fairly large Hor bore. It's not worth scrimping on the concrete, to do that is a false economy.

    Once you have the machine in position it needs accurately levelling up, most machines have scraped pads on the bed at the column end that will get you near as well as using the ways to level up. Levelling up is ok for starters but it's the later alignment checks that will get the machine in tip top condition.

    When we put the column and spindle frame onto the bed we used to power up the spindle and set the alignment of the spindle true to the master long travel way. That's usually the way nearest the operators station.

    When you put the saddle onto the bed you need to check in four positions how the saddle is sitting on the bed ways. I used a height gauge with a DTI and a slip gauge up from the bed ways to the saddle ways. Ideally you need four "0", on a well used machine it's unlikely you'll get that. Normally the front of the ways on the saddle wears more than the rear part of the ways.

    If you do by some stroke of luck get 4 "0" you can fit the table to the saddle. Again I'd check from the saddle ways up to the table top, hopefully you'll get 4 "0" again but it's pretty unlikely as the front shear on the saddle usually wears more than the rear shear.

    If you get lucky again you can fit the top table.

    Regarding the vertical alignment of the column to the bed I used a 4 ft square on the front way and DTI on the spindle nose. You need the column to be leaning forward a thou or two at the top to counteract tool push off. For horizontal alignment I had a device that mounted in the spindle nose so I could swing trammel from the spindle to the front edge of the saddle ways.

    What you tend to find on used machines is the the spindle frame will sag down to the rear of the column because of the imbalance of weight of the spindle frame on the column ways. You may find that although the column is perfectly plumb the spindle will not mill flat surfaces and you get a " saw tooth " sort of finish. To check for that error we swung trammelled from the spindle back to the column ways.

    When you are setting the saddle to the out riggers you need to have the wings of the saddle about 0.001" up at both ends. That's so when the table and top table plus workpiece move to the extreme ends of the ways the table will be level.

    I think that's enough to be going on with just for now.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Last edited by Tyrone Shoelaces; 10-01-2019 at 04:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    Here is the HBM version:
    Shop had a post about eight inches in diameter with two turned diameters (rings) equal in size and a plate on the bottom trued.
    Set upright on the table it is used to test the column square to the table/ways.
    John
    When you get to this point I have a cylinder square like John posted above. Not sure where you are in Ontario but if you want to make the trip to Michigan you can borrow this or buy it for $250. I am located about an hour and a half from Sarnia. It's 8-1/2 inch diameter and about 42 inches tall and has 3 ground diameters. It's not something that can be shipped easily. I will check it between centers to make sure it is still good. Daryl

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    Speaking of "post-type" cylindrical squares . . . Lucas Precision's website (Lucas Precision - Lucas Precision) contains several downloadable articles that you might find interesting. Probably the most useful will be "Construction And Use Of A Cylindrical Square".

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    Thanks for all the info. I should maybe give some more detail on this project. I’ve been a machinist millwright for 30yrs. I am now the newest machine repair guy in the shop and I am taking a new approach,I want to go through these machines and actually repair every issue,rather than the band aid fixes that have been taking place for decades. These machines were installed late 50’s to late 60’s.all good machines,proper foundations. All the guys are shocked that they are letting me tear this machine down like this.the shop is full of tired machines,this is the first of many.the shop is a 24-7 operation (steel mill).i removed the outer ways and ground the .020 step out of them,all new way wipers and scrapers,rollers on the outriggers were within .0005 of round and taper(not bad for a 60 yr old machine),I am going through all of the oiling systems,going to mill the way pockets on the table because of the wear on the outboard ends,table rocks a little like a teeter totter if heavy jobs are placed on ends of table.giong to replace the flaking that has worn away in the middle of the column,then reassemble.lots of work,and I just wanted to square and level the correct way and in the correct order to get it right the first time.i am always amazed that,the longer I work in this trade the more I find that I have yet to learn.once again thanks for the input,this is the first of many total rebuilds I am going to be doing over the next several years,I may turn to this forum for advice several more times .nice thing is I have all the factory manuals,for these machines.

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    Thanks for the offer. I have several four foot starret squares available to me. They should do the trick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xltguy View Post
    Thanks for all the info. I may turn to this forum for advice several more times .nice thing is I have all the factory manuals,for these machines.
    Tyrone’s got the good news on this one. I’ll attach some additional info for checking G&L’s.

    227793d1525534532-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle2.jpg227794d1525534561-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle3.jpg228250d1526047610-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-page54.jpg227796d1525534594-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle1.jpg

    Good luck
    Matt

    On Edit, corrected 3rd attachment
    Last edited by Matt_Maguire; 10-02-2019 at 04:32 PM. Reason: change attachment 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_Maguire View Post
    Tyrone’s got the good news on this one. I’ll attach some additional info for checking G&L’s.

    227793d1525534532-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle2.jpg227794d1525534561-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle3.jpg227794d1525534561-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle3.jpg227796d1525534594-aligning-inspecting-my-small-g-l-hbm-sweepspindle1.jpg

    Good luck
    Matt
    I was looking at the chart for the figures for the swing trammel from spindle to the saddle ways. The chart calls for 0.0015" in 48 inches.

    One machine I worked on after a lot of hard work I managed to finally get the error down to 0.0015" in about 8 ft. I was using the facing slide with an long trammel bar. The operator said to me - " Can't you get it a bit nearer Tyrone ? "

    Regards Tyrone.

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    I recall you mentioning that Tyrone (took a good portion of the day?). S’pect the mill driver was just wanting the rest of the day off??? (just kidding)

    By the late 80’s G&L had tightened things up some but folks had specific tools, lasers, prisms & targets to go pretty quick (for pretty good money, well spent, BTW). That said, when the tables got to 12’+ in length with 4 outriggers it was still asking a LOT from the narrowish master bedways to keep everything in order.

    jhruska informed me that I’d duplicated the 2nd attachment for #3 so I fixed it (#3 now shows checking spindle column to table top (floor plate both ways) & spindle to column, sh!t).

    Good luck
    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_Maguire View Post
    I recall you mentioning that Tyrone (took a good portion of the day?). S’pect the mill driver was just wanting the rest of the day off??? (just kidding)

    By the late 80’s G&L had tightened things up some but folks had specific tools, lasers, prisms & targets to go pretty quick (for pretty good money, well spent, BTW). That said, when the tables got to 12’+ in length with 4 outriggers it was still asking a LOT from the narrowish master bedways to keep everything in order.

    jhruska informed me that I’d duplicated the 2nd attachment for #3 so I fixed it (#3 now shows checking spindle column to table top (floor plate both ways) & spindle to column, sh!t).

    Good luck
    Matt
    Hi Matt, No the guy was very particular. Having said that his work was first class, best Hor Bore operator I ever came across and I worked with plenty of good ones.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Thanks ,this is exactly the type of information I have been looking for. I will read it over a bunch of times. Looking forward to seeing how close I can get this old girl.

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    This video series on my G&L adventures might help you. YouTube

    I must have done ok on it as when I milled a shaper body on it and they checked it on a CMM I had all the surfaces over 4feet in each direction within .002" total error of flatness and square. :-)

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    Thanks for the video tips. I have seen some of these on YouTube already. There great. I am now working on getting the Bijur lube systems working.


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