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How are you guys leveling your machines?

Kevin T

Stainless
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
I am about to attempt to level my new to me 1940's SB 16" and when I look in the reference material for that era I see these nice wide (4"-6") looking hardwood shims that I do not see for sale in my area. My hardware store only has 1.5" wide ones. Is there a source you guys use or a better more modern material I should consider? Thanks for any good ideas or wisdom.
 
Levelling an old and used lathe is always a subject of conversation and debate. The first thing to consider is the levelling depends upon the floor being solid and not subject to movement (such as deflection or "bounce" when live loads such as movement of people, hand trucks or pallet jacks). Next, bear in mind that an old lathe that has been used and moved and setup in a new location is likely to have some twist to the bed. This is a small amount of flexure of the bed and is normal. It takes time to "work out" once the lathe is setup in its new location. For this reason, simply levelling a lathe after it has been moved, let alone with some pre-existing wear on the bedways, will not automatically insure the lathe will turn a "true cylinder".

When a used lathe is re-set in a new location, it often takes a few re-levellings before the bed "settles in" and the twist is worked out of it.

As for levelling: there are several ways to go about it. Hardwood wedges are what the old texts will often show. What I use is shims cut from sheet metal or thin steel plate. I raise the machine tool base using what are known as either "flanging wedges" or "setup wedges"- forged and hardened steel wedges which can be driven with a steel hammer under the base of machinery to get it started lifting off the floor when no provision for using a pinch bar or jack is provided. I then use a pinch bar (length dependent on load to be be lifted) to pick up the machine base. Working alone, I come down on the bar with one hand (or foot if body weight is needed) and with my free hand or free foot, I nudge a thicker piece of steel plate under the machine base. This lets me add or take out shims without danger of things coming down on my fingers. This is a "safety" blocking and is a MUST if you put your hands or fingers under machine bases that are temporarily raised up for adjusting shimming. I cut the shims from anything handy in the way of steel- sheet metal is up to about 10 gauge or 1/8", and 1/8" up is considered as plate. I also keep some rolls of shim stock (stainless steel and brass) in the shop in thicknesses from 0.001" up to 0.030". This can be cut with snips.


I do a trial shimming to get machinery levelled, and then look at the shim "packs" under each foot or mounting location. If there are numerous thinner shims, this tends to create a "leaf spring" effect. I sum up the shims in that sort of pack and then reduce it to one or two thick shims and only 2 or 3 of the thin shims.

Where a machine is to be bolted to the floor, I make what I call "C" shims. These are shims with cuts to the bolt holes in from the edges. These cuts let the shims slip on or off the bolts without having to raise the machine up off the anchor bolts. You can buy these "C" shims ready made, but they can be prices. I make my own.

When making any shim, take care to remove all burrs. On thin shim stock, I take a piece of round stock like drill rod and lay the shim on a piece of flat steel plate. I then kind of wipe the drill rod (maybe 1/2" or 3/4" rod) across the shim to work down any raised areas from the snips, as well as peening the edges with a light hammer to make sure no little "hangnails" from the snips' cuts are sticking up. Any little burr or raised surface on a shim can mess things up and create a condition known as a "soft foot". You think you have your machine levelled, but once loads and vibration and time do their work, the machine goes out of level as the little folds and burrs work down on the shims.

Do not be afraid or ashamed to use whatever is at hand for shim material. Mike any steel that is handy and use it if it is the right thickness. Shims can be cut from the sides of olive oil cans or welding rod cans (done this MANY times), or from galvanized steel used for ducting, or from any thing that seems to fill the bill. Use steel or stainless steel shims under a lathe's base. If you are sitting the lathe on a concrete floor with some un-even or rough surface to it, you can cut the first shim from copper and fully anneal it. This shim will then deform or mold itself to the little irregularities in the concrete. Lay the steel shims on the copper shim. The copper shim is "sacrificial" and its ductility is what works in its favor. If the steel shims were laid right on rough concrete, they might initially bear on some small random high spots. In setting heavier machinery, we always chipped off the surface of the concrete floor or foundation with an air hammer and exposed fresh aggregate. We then set "sub sole plates" on a bed of non-shrink grout, levelling them with a precision level and checking their elevations from one plate to the others. This gave us a solid starting point with complete bearing contact into the underlying concrete. For your little Southbend lathe, a copper shim is plenty good.

Another couple of ideas: you can buy jacking screws with swivel (ball joint) base pads and use them in the mounting bolt holes in the mounting flange on the lathe base casting and in the "pads" or "feet on the tailstock-end leg casting. These swivel pads will conform to irregularities or dips-and-dives in a concrete floor's surface. I use this sort of setup under my lighter Southbend lathe, and put 1/4" pressure treated plywood shims between the pads on the levelling bolts and the floor.

If you choose not to buy pre-made jacking screws with the swivel base pads, you can make something similar. Get some pieces of steel plate about 4" x 4" x at least 3/8" thick. Take a piece of bar stock large enough to accomodate the size of anchor bolt the mounting holes in your lathe's base. Example: if the lathe has 5/8" holes in the base for anchor bolts, get a piece of 1 1/4 or 1 1/2" round stock (I use hot rolled A-36, common structural steel, nothing fancy needed for this). Cut off chunks about 1" long, chuck them in your lathe and face both ends square, then drill thru and tap 5/8-11. Locate the center of each of the 4 x 4 plates and weld these tapped slugs to each plate in the center. Chuck the welded assemblies in the lathe and take a light facing cut across the plate. You can turn a little relief or "pocket" in the face of the plate to allow the plate to seat better on the floor. Welding might have drawn the plate further out of flat.

Use some 5/8" B-7 grade all thread rod for studs and make some washers from 1/4" steel plate. Raise your lathe and set it up on wood blocking temporarily. Slide the plates (with the tapped slugs) under the mounting bolt locations on the base flange and leg pads. Slip an all thread stud down each mounting bolt hole, and thru a plate steel washer (big enough to get good bearing contact on the underside of the lathe's base flange or leg pads), and run the stud thru one regular hex nut and one thin "check nut". Screw the stud into the tapped slug on the plate, and make up the check nut. This locks the stud into the tapping on the plate. Run the hex hut up until it bears solidly on the plate washer. This will be used to jack your lathe up enough to get the wood blocking out, and to level your lathe. Run another hex nut down on the stud so it just is snug against the top surface of the base flange or leg pads. You can put 1/4" pressure treated plywood under the pad plates if your floor is a bit rough. The plywood will compress and conform to the irregularities in the floor and being pressure treated, is less likely to rot out if you wash down your shop floor. I paint these pieces of plywood with a couple of coats oil-based enamel.

Home made jacking "feet" will work like a champ for your lathe. Unless the lathe is driven from a countershaft mounted on the ceiling of your shop or on a wall, there really is no need to bolt it solidly to the floor. using home made jacking feet will get you off the hook for shimming and works nicely if you are levelling your lathe alone. You will not have to jack the lathe up to adjust shims, and with a couple of wrenches, you can tweak the lathe to level.

Again, bear in mind that you can level an old lathe so your precision level shows it as being "dead nuts" (perfectly levelled). However, when you go to take a cut on a long piece of work, you may be surprised to find the lathe still cuts a bit of a taper. This is due to the inevitable wear and twist in old lathe beds. I find that turning work between centers on long jobs, I have to tweak the tailstock offset now and then to get a true cylinder over a long run on old lathes. Levelling, despite what texts and manuals may tell you, is a theoretical sort of thing. In actuality, it is a starting point when you are dealing with an old lathe that has seen use, wear, and been thru a move or two or three.











I do not advise anchoring a lathe solidly to the floor. If you do put in anchor bolts, run them down so they are just snug. A slight pull on the wrench beyond hand tight is all that is needed. Pulling a lathe down solidly by drawing the anchor bolts down hard can give a false levelling or take a lathe bed off level and put a new twist into it. A very light tightening of the bolts is all this is needed.
 
When I leveled my cabinet base 10K, I did the gross adjustment with auto body shims (a good selection for a few bucks at Harbor Freight if you have one). I then went with metal shim stock for the final adjustments. A piece of aluminum foil would make a noticeable displacement on the precision level. The cabinet base sits on four steel "stilts" grouted and bolted to a concrete basement slab. I'd stay away from wood.
 

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Levelling an old and used lathe is always a subject of conversation and debate. The first thing to consider is the levelling depends upon the floor being solid and not subject to movement (such as deflection or "bounce" when live loads such as movement of people, hand trucks or pallet jacks). Next, bear in mind that an old lathe that has been used and moved and setup in a new location is likely to have some twist to the bed. This is a small amount of flexure of the bed and is normal. It takes time to "work out" once the lathe is setup in its new location. For this reason, simply levelling a lathe after it has been moved, let alone with some pre-existing wear on the bedways, will not automatically insure the lathe will turn a "true cylinder".

When a used lathe is re-set in a new location, it often takes a few re-levellings before the bed "settles in" and the twist is worked out of it.

<snip>

Amen to that. It took over a week for the level on my SB13 to stay put. I re-leveled it daily until it stopped changing. It takes time for the bed to relax in its new home.
 
You can actually get surprisingly accurate results from a good ordinary machinist level. A master level is better of course. I've leveled all our machines with just a machinist level and the Sidney 16x72 and LeBlond 20x36 both cut straight within .0003 over 12" with the work unsupported. The 3" Lucas showed similar results. All machines were checked with my Wild automatic optical level and showed less than .002 twist globally. A cheap dumpy level and a couple optical targets would be a handy way for hobbyists to level up their machines.
 
I've levelled and set sole plates to elevation for some large diesel engines overseas using the method JBoogie describes. All we had was a surveyor's "dumpy" level and my Starrett 98 precision level. I used my Starrett combination square with 18" blade as my "rod", and was able to split the 1/64ths on the blade of the square with the crosshairs on the reticle ('scope) of the level. Splitting the 64ths got the sole plates within about +/- 0.005" of each other for elevation and level. I then checked final levelling on the soles with the Starrett 98 level.

I've used the Starrett 199 "master" precision level, and I have found that if things are not dead nuts level with my 98 levels, I can be chasing my tail for awhile. When I used to level turbine sole plates and similar with the 199 level, I would first get things dead nuts with the 98 levels. The 199 level, resolving to 10X the accuracy of the 98 level was too fine for "roughing in".

I've levelled a lot of large turbine and generator work using a K & E "Paragon" optical (tilting level), and I've used an "electronic square" which was quite amazing.

For levelling a South Bend lathe, not doing toolroom work, a Starrett 98 level is plenty good.

At home in retirement, I occasionally do go out on erecting jobs and interesting projects as a consulting engineer. I still use the 98 levels, and sometimes bring my transit. This is a Brunson "engineer transit" and I use it to establish elevations as well as to carry centerlines and similar. Nothing so sophisticated as a theodolite or the Paragon level I had when I worked full time at the powerplant.

Again, it comes down to how good a base any machine is setting upon before proper levelling and tweaking can be done. Solid shimming using steel shims or jacking screws on lighter machines is what I recommend.
 
Thanks for all the information guys. I will take it all to heart as I work into this. The machine came with a bag of stainless C shims that I will most likely use if I can. I like the idea of jack screws but I was worried that it was too big to use these. I am bringing her home today so I can take a good look at what I have. I was thinking that the bolt pads at the floor would need to make more contact than a jack screw alone would provide. Is that a non-issue? It's a 16" x 8' bed going on a poured concrete floor.
 
Another way to use jacking screws it to get some plate 3/4 or so thick, cut aprox 4" x 4" and drill a divet into it the size of the jack screw. Just deep enough so the jack screw stays and does not slide around when tightening. It will spread the load and keep the screws from digging into the floor. Turn or grind the tip of the screws to match the drill tip angles in the divet.
 
Above all else ;- Never forget that you can level all you like, using anything from a dish of water to the highest of high end lasers, etc the ONLY & REALtruth is the turning test
 
Even more important than perfect leveling is to check for and to adjust any bend or twist in the bed. Can be done with a precision level or autocollimator.
 
Even more important than perfect leveling is to check for and to adjust any bend or twist in the bed. Can be done with a precision level or autocollimator.
What is meant when a lathe is to "leveled" is to remove any twist in the bed. (or add some if badly worn) The lathe does not care or need to be literally "level". How would you level one on a ship that is always moving?
 
I am fortunate in that I own a few Starrett 98 precision levels, the longest being 18". I also have a matched set of 1-2-3 blocks and a matched set of heavy parallels 1" wide x 3" high x about 16" long. Levelling a lathe bed is a subject we've discussed here in different threads many times over. As is obvious, there are two (2) directions to level the bed: along the run of the bed, and across the bed. In my opinion, levelling along the run of the bed (parallel to the bedways and parallel to the centerline of the spindle) is not really the important levelling. Levelling across the bed is the more critical of the two directions for levelling as this is where twist is more likely to be found and worked out of a lathe bed. When I level across the bed of a lathe, I "build a bridge" using the 1-2-3 blocks set on the flat ways on either side of the bed, and then span it with my 18" precision level. I clean the areas of the bedways where I will be landing the 1-2-3 blocks and lightly stone those areas with a small Arkansas hard stone or India Medium Hard stone depending on condition of the bedways. I mark the locations of the 1-2-3 blocks using a "Sharpie" on the bedways, and mark the 1-2-3 blocks as to orientation on the bedways (which block was on which side of the bed). I also make sure my level is adjusted (I call this "bucked in") and repeats its reading when turned end-for-end.

It may sound picky to mark the 1-2-3 blocks and to stone the bedways, but a small burr or area of "bruised" metal (raised or deformed from something digging into the bedway surface or striking it) can throw off levelling quite a bit. While the 1-2-3 blocks are within a few ten thousandths of each other, and the level is something I've owned since it was new and was never dropped nor abused, I still take care with all of it. If you expect to level a worn lathe bed, you have to re-position your level where it was each time you move it to check another location. I am fortunate in that I can build two "bridges" using 1-2-3's, the heavy parallel, and a shorter Starrett 98 level on one bridge, and the 1-2-3's and the 18" 98 level on the other. In that way, I do not have to break down the levels and 1-2-3's, etc and keep repositioning them to check each end of the bed.

For an old 16" South Bend lathe such as the Original Poster owns, a Starrett 98 level and some 1-2-3 blocks and a long parallel would be all that is needed to do a good levelling. On really large lathes, we have used the optical levelling, but these were LeBlond wide bed lathes, one being 25" swing x 96" and a heavy duty wide bed model. The other was even larger, swinging work 60" over the cross slide x about 20 feet between centers, and about 5' bed width. For little lathes like the OP asked about, I would not imagine using an auto collimator or any sort of optical levelling.

In response to the OP's concerns about jacking screws: if you make steel plate washers to bear against the underside of the lathe's base flange and the underside of the "feet" or "pads" on the leg casting at the tailstock end, jacking screws should work fine. I use B-7 grade all thread rod, which is the approximate equivalent of a Grade 8 bolt, and should be available at your local Fastenal, or from McMaster or MSC.

As for 3 phase power, I know there are some members who will take exception to using solid-state phase converters. I use capacitor-type converters on some of my 3 phase machine tools, and have no problems. Admittedly, not the most efficient means of creating 3 phase power from single phase, but for home use and the fact you are unlikely to load that lathe's motor to anything near nameplate, a solid state converter is fine. I found some on ebay made right here in NY State for reasonable prices. For a converter which will handle a 2 HP motor, I think I spent around 100 bucks. It is money well spent, particularly on something like your 16" lathe. A lot of 3 phase motors are supplied via "starters" with overload heaters and "contactors" to do the actual switching of the power. When you push a button such as "forward", "reverse", or "stop" on a lot of 3 phase motor controls, you are pushing a momentary contact button. This sends "control power" to the coil in the contactor for whatever you've selected. The coil "pulls in and holds" a set of contacts to switch the motor to whatever you have called for with the push buttons. If you go to repower a lathe with this type of control using a single phase motor, you generally wind up removing the 3 phase motor controls and possibly using a "drum" type of reversing switch. In addition, on a lot of older machine tools, the motors pre-date the more recent NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) standard frame sizes. Old motors had heavier frames than the newer ones, with different mounting dimensions. Who wants to poke his head and shoulders into the base of a Southbend lathe to drill and tap new holes for a motor with the currently-available frame sizes ?
 
Our SB 14.5 came with steel base plates that someone made.

1/2 steel plate that is about 3/4 larger than the footprint of the headstock end and about the same for the tail stock end.

They have a 45 degree bevel and look real nice.

The holes in the bottom of of the lathe are threaded 5/8 and long bolts with jamb nuts make leveling simple and the load spread across the steel is great.

Concrete is about 28 inches thick in that spot does not hurt either.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
What is meant when a lathe is to "leveled" is to remove any twist in the bed. (or add some if badly worn) The lathe does not care or need to be literally "level". How would you level one on a ship that is always moving?

Thank you for that clarification. I moved the lathe today from where I found her to my garage and I was a little bummed to see that the drip tray took a bit of a bend at some point before my ownership. I will need to get some pics loaded here but I suspect the last time she was moved someone tested the strength of that pan with a forklift and it bent up about 2 inches on the backside so there is some pre-load around to make leveling fun. I have only one 12" precision level and have been looking at those Starrett 98's that folks are recommending.

Moving the lathe was a very good brain teaser and I had a bit of luck that materials were around to improvise! Got it positioned to about 1 inch from where I thought it should be! Move it 25 miles and set in place in about 2 1/2 hours with three guys, a tilt bed dual axel trailer, a large forklift at the loading end, a 50 year old pallet jack, a brand new Toyota electric pallet jack!!!!, a couple heavy pallets, a couple large pry bars for nudging concrete wall panels into position and few big 4 x 4's and assorted pieces of random lumber....oh and the last necessary item, that I overlooked was a 1" dia steel rod to roll it a few feet to the final resting place.lol
 
It is easiest to read the level IF everything is truly level. But the most important thing is that the readings are the SAME, if the bubble is 3 lines to the back at headstock and 1 line to the back at tailstock just set them both to 2 lines back and call it good, this shows no twist in bed.(or 3 or 1, dosn't matter) I would go for full level if it is a permanent location though, just to make it easier to verify or recheck it down the road. To get it close (rough it in so to speak) set the level on the carriage and then you can crank it back and fourth without having to re square it to ways. But after getting it close that way do as Joe described above and go right off the ways.
 
What is meant when a lathe is to "leveled" is to remove any twist in the bed. (or add some if badly worn) The lathe does not care or need to be literally "level". How would you level one on a ship that is always moving?

I agree. A slight tilt helps coolant drain. It’s the geometry of the turned part that matters which is about alignment of bed and spindle not whether the machine is plumb to gravity.

Mal


Mal
AKA The Felsted Skiver
 
SBS are very light at the tail end.....you can improve performance significantly by suspending a "ballast" between the tail end leg.

It needs an extra 100lbs or so there...I used a bag of sackrete...really helped to damp vibrations.
 
SBS are very light at the tail end.....you can improve performance significantly by suspending a "ballast" between the tail end leg.

It needs an extra 100lbs or so there...I used a bag of sackrete...really helped to damp vibrations.

I had never considered that kind of touch to help the old gal. I might try to fashion some tool storage that hangs off the tray at some point. Just got it placed yesterday so there is a long way to go for me before I am making chips.
Placed_002.jpg

I attempted to straighten that bent pan with a mini rail road jack and a 4x4. It moved a little when pushing from the underside of the bed but then the machine tilted off the ground so I need a different approach to get it done.
is it ok to use a small bottle jack between the main casting bottom and the top of the pan to force it back into shape?

Placed_001.jpg

Also I found a plate that I hadn't seen before. I am not sure where to put pictures of my progress. Is it the forum norm to start a "one thread" where I can keep putting my pictures and concerns/discoveries as I go? I had discovered the stamp from Raritan Arsenal on the bed of my lathe but with a plate on the far end of the casting I wonder if it was used at Raritan before coming out to Hawaii?

Placed_003.jpg
 
You should start a thread in the SB forum....it sorely needs more threads on the bigger SBs....and you will get tips from other owners familiar with the peculiarities of the model.

Looks like a nice machine you have.

Ps- do not be tempted to buy a uber sensitive level, you will make yourself crazy.
 








 
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