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HSS tool blank brands

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
I've noticed that when HSS tool blanks come up for sale, some brands are advertised as better than others. Like many, i like old american made stuff just because it's old and american made. Putting that preference aside, is there a performance difference between old USA and new import? If so, what is that difference?
 
"Old USA" can include many different makers and many different products. I expect some are better than others, but I really can't say which, even after over 60 years of using them. When I was a kid with my first lathe, I just used the bits that were sold by the store that sold the lathe. They were as-rolled and had no maker mark, but, in that era, must have been made in the USA and were certainly HSS, since I did not wreck the hardness by sharpening them on a disk sander on my wood lathe. The first bits I had that were marked (circa 1955) were finish ground on all sides and said Cleveland Mo-Max. They certainly looked better than the old ones, but that lathe was too crude to really notice any performance improvement. Over the years, I have acquired many different HSS bits, with many different names on them. But, once I got some decent quality lathes, I started using mostly carbide bits, either brazed or with inserts. So, I only use HSS when I need to grind a form, like a radius. That sort of use does not lead to any valid opinion of relative merit. They all work just fine, whichever type I happen to use.

Larry
 
Iis there a performance difference between old USA and new import?
I am going to say "no", but you need to understand that there are about 15-20 different types of high speed steel, M2, M4, M42, T1 and T15 being probably the most common, and they don't all have equal performance for all tasks.

You also need to understand that the crappy "old USA" was discarded long ago, while "new import" will 1) have the usual small fraction of crap due to poor quality control or outright incompetence at the foundry, and 2) be much harder to identify because "new import" rarely if ever comes with a brand name to be remembered (and avoided or repurchased as appropriate).
 
I've noticed that when HSS tool blanks come up for sale, some brands are advertised as better than others. Like many, i like old american made stuff just because it's old and american made. Putting that preference aside, is there a performance difference between old USA and new import? If so, what is that difference?

Alloy "family" and maker are personal favourites because "back in the day" one used what "the company" bought, got used to how best to shape what you had to get the best performance for the alloys and TASKS one worked on them.

Which might differ, right out the loading dock and across the railway spur, some other shop doing different work on different metals.

We could each pick AMONG a small set of choices, but not necessarily the same players on that menu, one shop to the next.

No "one size fits all", but if I could "only have ONE" it would be Crucible's Rex 95. Alloys of steel and a few bronzes, almost never shiney-wood.

I HAVE easily two dozen others, but that's as much by accident as intention, so only adds confusion.

Next contributor, and THEIR best all-around choice, please?

:)
 
I use HSS almost exclusively and it is very hard to discriminate by brand or even age. It isn't like they have a production history stamped on them. So, in many ways it is a crap shoot. I can state that newer made is usually better than the older stuff and I can definitely state that the cobalt alloys are much better than the other non-cobalt HSS alloys. Now, out of those M42 and T15 are superior or if not labeled the 8% to 10% cobalt alloys are superior. Keep in mind they are not only harder, more wear resistant and shock resistant, but they are more difficult to grind. In that light, I highly recommend a Baldor 500 series tool grinder and the use of quality AO wheels, it really makes a difference. Through use you find those tool bits that are just better than others. I find myself just liking some over others. These newer cobalt bits last me forever. When they get a little dull, I simply regrind them. I have a job shop. I never do production. Everything is a one-off job and in that scenario, HSS is much, much less expensive than carbide and or insert tooling in every respect. That statement is only valid if you have your shit together and can grind correct tool geometry. So, the use of HSS tooling requires a personal investment to acquire the correct skill set.
 
..the use of HSS tooling requires a personal investment to acquire the correct skill set.

Point.

Once a person has MADE that investment in shaping skill and knowledge as to what a given alloy and task require OF it, then also realizes that a "Carbide guru" has made his own equivalent investment as to SELECTION from a huge option set, generally not at all to be shaped? IOW he has to just "get it right".

There is an inertia as to doubling-up.

Not because we do not want to be expert in both. Rather because tasking deadlines do not often leave the time, nor might there be a lot of spare budget when there IS time.

'nuther coupla things:

Don't turn-up yer nose at those salvaged collections on ebay and the like of used SHORT HSS blanks.

Those are food for boring-bars. PITA to cut a nice long blank as won't fit when a shorty will do just fine but is time lost if yah have to create "shortness".

Get curious about the existing grinds on used acquisitions and sort them. Each one represents some long-gone fellow craftsman's approach to solve HIS challenge.

Your own way might not always be worse (some are HORRIBLE!).
Or might not always be better (others can be elegantly clever).

Keep an open mind on that and put it to advantage. It can reduce time lost reshaping if nothing else!

:)
 
I found this page The Traditional Tools Group (Inc.) -- Document View to be really crucial in helping me identify all the brands and what makes up each flavor. I know it's listed in book form, but when rooting through estate sales this is a great quick reference. Personally I'd have to agree with above, if I could only have one it would be Rex 95 or Halcomb 999, both T8 and hold up better than everything else to my shaper. I did buy 100lbs of HSS for pennies from someone in the aerospace industry here, and it was full of huge M42 and M43 blanks, Fagerstae WKE 4, Super Mo Max Cobalt, Bofors Super Cobalt etc, all for what seemed like turning stainless. Not very useful to the shaper's interrupted cut. Still, was interesting to see a what someone would have used for stainless work. I also have some Tantung, Stellite, and Vasco Supreme, which are tough to grind but hold up even better than the Rex 95, but I rarely need to use them. I find it to be pretty rewarding to not only learn about cutter geometry as I grind my own tools, and I learn a lot by looking at the shapes of the ground bits I find in estate sales, always inspiring to see what kinds of custom tools people make.
 
I found this page The Traditional Tools Group (Inc.) -- Document View to be really crucial in helping me identify all the brands and what makes up each flavor. I know it's listed in book form, but when rooting through estate sales this is a great quick reference. Personally I'd have to agree with above, if I could only have one it would be Rex 95 or Halcomb 999, both T8 and hold up better than everything else to my shaper. I did buy 100lbs of HSS for pennies from someone in the aerospace industry here, and it was full of huge M42 and M43 blanks, Fagerstae WKE 4, Super Mo Max Cobalt, Bofors Super Cobalt etc, all for what seemed like turning stainless. Not very useful to the shaper's interrupted cut. Still, was interesting to see a what someone would have used for stainless work. I also have some Tantung, Stellite, and Vasco Supreme, which are tough to grind but hold up even better than the Rex 95, but I rarely need to use them. I find it to be pretty rewarding to not only learn about cutter geometry as I grind my own tools, and I learn a lot by looking at the shapes of the ground bits I find in estate sales, always inspiring to see what kinds of custom tools people make.

First, I cannot believe you have durability problems with your cobalt alloy tools in a shaper. Cobalt bits take even the worst slamming better than anything I have used. If you don't like them, make me deal and I'll buy some from you. I have an 18" shaper and have "ZERO" issues with cobalt bits.
 
if I could only have one it would be Rex 95 or Halcomb 999, both T8 and hold up better than everything else to my shaper. I did buy 100lbs of HSS for pennies from someone in the aerospace industry here, and it was full of huge M42 and M43 blanks, Fagerstae WKE 4, Super Mo Max Cobalt, Bofors Super Cobalt etc, all for what seemed like turning stainless. Not very useful to the shaper's interrupted cut. Still, was interesting to see a what someone would have used for stainless work. I also have some Tantung, Stellite, and Vasco Supreme, which are tough to grind but hold up even better than the Rex 95, but I rarely need to use them. I find it to be pretty rewarding to not only learn about cutter geometry as I grind my own tools, and I learn a lot by looking at the shapes of the ground bits I find in estate sales, always inspiring to see what kinds of custom tools people make.

Tantung I like.

Funny on the "HUGE" blanks.

There is a trick to be used.. now and then... HSS/Cobalt doesn't actually carry heat all that well, but Silver won't hold an edge worth a damn either, so:

Cross-section is cross-section. Volume is volume. Surface area is ... etc.

Larger blanks can absorb more heat and transfer it faster to greater surface area than smaller blanks can do.

Extreme case? Shim a 3/4" or 1 1/4" blank to height atop the bare compound, rob a pair of clamp-bolts off yer mill, run some serious and chatter-free chip, compared to a 5/16" blank in a holder.

Not about amount of chip. Just stiffer and cooler tip - especially for those times when you want to avoid coolant use.

Handy as well for when you HAVE no functioning toolpost or mountup for it just yet, might be using the barefoot and hungry lathe to MAKE one for itself.

Prolly get about two hundred years of use out of an otherwise not counted as useful blank, too!

I'm good with that last part, most of all!

:D
 
Rex AAA is one I use a lot ans seems to work for most all materials. From the excellent linked article above it says this about the AAA:


Outstanding tool bit for general purpose applications
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. as a hobbiest and job shop want-to-be, HSS is a great solution for me. All mys spindles turn slow and i find the challenge of grinding the proper tool geometry to be very satisfying. Like many, i have a large selection of tools ground by some un-named old-timers and it is a bit like taking a journey back in time. One can only wonder at the conditions under which these tools were ground.
 








 
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