ID'ing old lathe, milling machine and drill press?

billbled · Aug 9, 2018

Hi,
I work in the shop at the NC DOT. We're getting ready to put on auction our old machine shop equipment, specifically a lathe, milling machine and drill press. We're going to miss them, since we used them frequently. But the "powers that be" have decided they need the space worse than the machines.
I was just curious about their history before they went. Folks here said they came to us from a battleship. Wish there was a way of verifying that. It'd be neat to know. Does anybody know if there is a way to trace serial numbers and find out more history on these machines? They look cool, and have worked great for us. We will miss having them. I've posted pics also.
Thanks,
Bill

johnoder · Aug 9, 2018

On The B&E lathe - If that is a "D" in front of the 33, a 22" Heavy Duty from about 1947 - although the tag plainly says 28

The serial book shows the last 28 having been built in 1919

Looks like it has the L type spindle nose making it way past 1919

Franz© · Aug 9, 2018

There were only 23 US Battle Ships in the US Navy during WW-2 and I think you can pretty much eliminate the machines coming from Arizona.
You can get some good ideas of machines aboard by using a search engine for "us battleships ww-2 machine shops" and get a lot of information as well as pictures.

There is a thread on this site for shops aboard Tenders.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/.../machine-shops-aboard-us-navy-tenders-187806/

All of that said, I sort of doubt your machines were aboard any ship in that time frame.

Far greater likelihood is the machines were in a Navy Yard or used by a contractor to the Navy. At the end of the War and for years afterward, those machines were liquidated, often by the feds donating them to States, Schools, Orphanages, Zoos or anybody in Government who would take them. This went on into the 60s with equipment from WW-2.

There were also trainloads of machines sold at auction in the 60s to get them off Government books. Then, there are machines that were just written off and walked away from because there were no takers. I can think of a Plymouth yard locomotive presently sitting in a Museum collection that spent 50 years sitting in the middle of a junkyard property untouched because 2 men took it upon themselves to verify it's presence and condition every year until the Museum rescued it.. It survived because it was cheaper for the junk dealer to leave it sit than the risk of having to pay his Lawyer if it got scrapped. That junkyard had been a ship building yard for the Government from 42 through 45, and wound up back in private hands because no Government entity wanted it.

There was just too much Government owned property to inventory during the war and after, and shortly after VJ Day, no funding to inventory or audit. For a while the inventory was maintained in Government hands by fear of prosecution. Then Government property sitting on private property sort of began to disappear and nobody went looking for it.

If those machines were Government owned, they will be wearing a red metal tag identifying them as Government War Property approximately 1" x 2" with a inventory number. Those numbers were recorded when the machine left the manufacturer, by hand into a ledger, and the auditor assigned to the manufacturer passed that information downline to someplace in Washington DC.
The information may, or may not have been typed up, but when the War ended it was abandoned in place, and probably wound up incinerated.

Even if you find the tag, chances of tracking the machine's movement are slim to none because nobody was paid to care when the War ended.

SouthBendModel34 · Aug 9, 2018

USN "Acceptance Stamp"

If these machines were once owned by the US Navy, then they will bear a USN Acceptance Stamp, indicating that they were inspected and found acceptable by a Navy inspector.

The stamp is usually near the serial number. It is an old-style ship anchor flanked by the initials U S. The inspector's initials may also be present.

For example, I once looked over an ex-USN Hendey lathe which had the acceptance stamp next to the serial number on the top of the right end of the bed casting, between the ways.

John Ruth

billbled · Aug 9, 2018

Wow - what an impressive amount of information! Thank you all for taking the time to reply and sharing your knowledge. I do appreciate it and will share with my co-workers.

SouthBendModel34 · Aug 9, 2018

I'm sure I speak for the majority on this forum when I say that we appreciate your gratitude.

I want to point out that "We're not done yet!" - More info may yet show up in the next couple of days.

Post all the makers, model numbers, and serial numbers - because "serial number books" for the use of used machinery dealers exist. (John Oder hints at this in his Post #2, but since you are coming into this "cold," you might not yet know that these books list ranges of serial numbers for many makes/models of machines by year.)

If these machines do have "War Production Board" or other US Gov't Property tags, these might yet be traceable through the National Archives. (My opinion is that the existence of these records has not been entirely disproven.)

John Ruth

billbled · Aug 9, 2018

Oh cool - more info is always good! I went back and looked just now and didn't find a USN Acceptance stamp or a red Gov't War Property tag. So either they never were war property or they've been long removed. Here are some more pics of the lathe:

johnoder · Aug 9, 2018

Speed chart 11 to 388 matches Model "D" brochure I have for 22" Heavy Duty

I'd be interested to know if tail stock ram/quill/spindle is 3 3/8" dia.? If bigger it just means the lathe is "newer" than my brochure

billbled · Aug 9, 2018

hi John,
Is this the measurement you're after? Sorry if that's not what you're after. I'm still learning the parts and terminology of this equipment. And they're taking it away. Great timing.
Anyway....about 101.6mm or 4 in.

More pics:

johnoder · Aug 9, 2018

Thanks! That's a 24" Heavy Duty size tail stock - or April 1946 like the thumbnail where the 22" had the 4" tailstock barrel

You can also see the weight is getting on up near 9000

And since we are fairly accurately dating this B&E, I'll go ahead and say it is likely post WW2

billbled said:
hi John,
Is this the measurement you're after?
About 101.6mm or 4 in.
View attachment 235227

Franz© · Aug 9, 2018

SouthBendModel34 said:
If these machines do have "War Production Board" or other US Gov't Property tags, these might yet be traceable through the National Archives. (My opinion is that the existence of these records has not been entirely disproven.)

John Ruth

Would you care to share what you've managed to find John?

I saw an awful lot of government paperwork rolled to dumpsters in the 60s.

In searching the history of Odenbach Shipbuilding which turned into grain storage for to feed starving Europe after the War ended and ship orders were cut to ZERO the grain accounting staff was 3 ladies who quickly figured out they only needed to show up occasionally to pick their paychecks up.

jim rozen · Aug 9, 2018

A bit out of focus, but:

thermite · Aug 9, 2018

Franz© said:
There were only 23 US Battle Ships in the US Navy during WW-2 and I think you can pretty much eliminate the machines coming from Arizona.
You can get some good ideas of machines aboard by using a search engine for "us battleships ww-2 machine shops" and get a lot of information as well as pictures.

There is a thread on this site for shops aboard Tenders.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/.../machine-shops-aboard-us-navy-tenders-187806/

All of that said, I sort of doubt your machines were aboard any ship in that time frame.

Far greater likelihood is the machines were in a Navy Yard or used by a contractor to the Navy. At the end of the War and for years afterward, those machines were liquidated, often by the feds donating them to States, Schools, Orphanages, Zoos or anybody in Government who would take them. This went on into the 60s with equipment from WW-2.

There were also trainloads of machines sold at auction in the 60s to get them off Government books. Then, there are machines that were just written off and walked away from because there were no takers. I can think of a Plymouth yard locomotive presently sitting in a Museum collection that spent 50 years sitting in the middle of a junkyard property untouched because 2 men took it upon themselves to verify it's presence and condition every year until the Museum rescued it.. It survived because it was cheaper for the junk dealer to leave it sit than the risk of having to pay his Lawyer if it got scrapped. That junkyard had been a ship building yard for the Government from 42 through 45, and wound up back in private hands because no Government entity wanted it.

There was just too much Government owned property to inventory during the war and after, and shortly after VJ Day, no funding to inventory or audit. For a while the inventory was maintained in Government hands by fear of prosecution. Then Government property sitting on private property sort of began to disappear and nobody went looking for it.

If those machines were Government owned, they will be wearing a red metal tag identifying them as Government War Property approximately 1" x 2" with a inventory number. Those numbers were recorded when the machine left the manufacturer, by hand into a ledger, and the auditor assigned to the manufacturer passed that information downline to someplace in Washington DC.
The information may, or may not have been typed up, but when the War ended it was abandoned in place, and probably wound up incinerated.

Even if you find the tag, chances of tracking the machine's movement are slim to none because nobody was paid to care when the War ended.

This.. should be a "sticky" for the insight into what happens in a nation who regards its business AS business, and wars and their noisome overheads a damned nuisance to be pushed off the table as soon as possible at "no budget".

I wasn't limited to WWII, of course.

SouthBendModel34 · Aug 10, 2018

Franz,

Poorly worded, I was trying to point out that it is difficult to prove a negative with regard to government records. You are without any doubt correct that it was, and is, commonplace for records with potential historical value to be destroyed. What was trying to get across is that I can't "write off" the notion that at least some relevant records may yet come to light; there are un-searched records in the hands of the National Archives.

General Comment: "War is Waste!" (That was actually the title of a postwar government short film which was discussed on this forum not long ago.)

Jim,

Thank you for posting that photo! If the OP finds such a stamp on the machines being discussed, it will confirm that the Navy once owned them, although as Franz points out, it won't confirm that they were aboard ship.

John Ruth

Franz© · Aug 10, 2018

Dangit John, I was holding hope you'd found a door & key I haven't.
I have a fairly decent understanding of government storage, ranging from an underground warehouse on the East Coast containing what might be 5" gun mounts for a WW-1 triple stack steam driven Destroyer that will never leave said warehouse to a pile of documentation sitting on the second floor of an office overlooking a river waiting for Spring flooding so they can fall out the window into the river.

Some day, if I become sufficiently bored, I will begin calculating how many acres of timber have been cut to make the paper that had to be filled out in triplicate, or quadruplicate (retain the canary copy for your records) that nothing could move without. Until then I shall rest on my accidental encounter with a lady who was employed in a basement office of Bethesda Hospital delaying processing of paper that would have moved needed supplies to SE Asia.

woodsrider845 · Aug 10, 2018

Those machines look to be in very good, usable condition. Kind of stupid, in my view, to get rid of them. Start pouring a floor now, and getting a roof over it. When they move them outside, "for space", make them disappear, to a new, appreciative household.

billbled · Aug 10, 2018

We all agree 100% - it IS stupid to get rid of them. They've been IN use - all of them - up until a few weeks ago when the power was disconnected. We used them to make parts for equipment, and that was especially handy when we were on 24 hour shifts because of snow. Now, said equipment will have to be sidelined until replacement parts can be delivered.
Yeah - whoever ends up with these will get some very useable machines. No doubt. And we will hate losing them.

Franz© · Aug 10, 2018

In that neighborhood they will probably turn up here real soon.
Government Surplus Auctions - govdeals.com

Probability is the photographer/lister already has them ready to go.

Remember to suggest putting the parts coming from the Northeast on the bus for faster delivery than UPS.

Then you can sit back and wait for the right piece of steel to arrive because the same genius who sold the machines scrapped the steel pile. He probably has a Degree from Management School.

billbled · Aug 10, 2018

You might well be right about GovDeals, but - I think there is a good chance they'll end up here:
NC Auctions
I can post the exact link when I find out if anyone is interested in them.

johnoder · Aug 10, 2018

billbled said:
You might well be right about GovDeals, but - I think there is a good chance they'll end up here:
NC Auctions
I can post the exact link when I find out if anyone is interested in them.

Private message sent

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