Imperial Milling Machine

I am looking at buying an 'Imperial' brand Milling Machine. The unit is older and looks well built. I haven't been able to find any info online about the company though. Anyone seen anything like this?

JohnMessineo said:

I am looking at buying an 'Imperial' brand Milling Machine. The unit is older and looks well built. I haven't been able to find any info online about the company though. Anyone seen anything like this?

Click to expand...

Hhhmmmm....... we need a better picture.

sorry, the mill looks like this

Well,it certainly looks like the machine would not be apt to bend under load!!

With a name like that could it be English?

i thought that...it's still hooked up and able to be demoed, the guy originally wanted 1500, I offered him 500 and he said yes!. Would be nice to know a little about it though.

Here's a vertical with the same name plate: http://trimaticmachinerysales.com/new/imperial.html

allan

John:

The name "Imperial" could be nothing more than a "badge" type of name. Imported machine tools were often made by otherwise unknown firms, and were often re-sold under the seller's label or badge. Names that might have some relevance in the country the machine tools were marketed in were chosen by the seller. The seller might be back in the country where the machine tool was made, or might be a seller in the country where the tools were marketed. Examples of this are the "Bridgeport clones"- having names like "Hartford", "Big Joe", or even "Grizzly". A machine tool dealer in Brooklyn, NY sold lathes made in Korea as the US distributor, branding the lathes as "Lansing". Spanish, Belgian, Italian, and countries in the former Soviet Union all produced machine tools that were "rebadged" for export sale. The firms marketing these tools in various countries such as the USA or England never owned a dedicated factory making the machine tools. They'd set up contracts with factories in places like Europe, China or Taiwan to build the machine tools and "badge" them with the seller's name. Years ago, I owned a "Rapid Precision" lathe. Never heard of it before getting it as a used lathe, never heard of it again for about 40 years- then, on this thread, the "rapid precision" lathe resurfaced. A person in some distant state had gotten hold of one, and was asking the same question I had asked some 40 years earlier. Turns out the "Rapid Precision" lathe was (as best as could be determined on this 'board) possibly German built for export to the USA, hence, it had fasteners made to US threads, and the name was "Rapid Precision"- no "made in Germany" tag on it, no manufacturer's name nor address. From what I have learned on Tony Griffith's site "Lathe Archive", the "badging" of machine tools by end-sellers (dealers or similar merchants) was and is quite common. With imported machine tools from places that might not have the best reputation or credibility, re-badging with a name that might lead a buyer to think the machine tool came from the same country it was marketed in was common. Similarly, a completely reputable machine tool builder in one country might have a totally unrecognized name outside that country. Badging in the country where the machine tools were marketed gave the tools a catchy or more believable name.

A clue as to the origin of the "Imperial" mill might be to check some of the fasteners- if metric, then check the pitch with a metric screw pitch gauge. If metric diameter and pitch work out, the machine was made in Europe or Asia. If the fasteners mike at some recognizable fraction of an inch ( 1/4", 1/2", etc), then check the pitch with a pitch gauge for threads/inch, and therein the plot thickens. If the machine tool was made in England, then the pitches will likely correspond to Whitworth threads rather than the pitches used for those same size threads in the USA.

If the motor on the machine and electrical equipment on the mill is original, this will also provide some clue as to at least the continent of origin.

For 500 bucks, if you get a solid milling machine that is in reasonably good condition, with a spindle taper that you can get tooling for, you got a good deal. If you got some tooling with the mill, you really got a good deal.

Usually in looking at a machine tool, the "style of design" will often give a clue as to place of origin. The more subtle clues come in the style of letters and numbers and the grammar used on any instructional plates, or on feed and speed charts. A lot of machine tools built in what was the Soviet Union follow a mixture of design styles, and following German designs for milling machines was quite common. It's a piece of detective work to track down where and when an "Imperial" mill was made, and my thinking is it is probably late 60's-early 70's as it has a heavy look to it. The photos give a few clues- the motor looks possibly European, and the style of design looks like it could be British or German in origin, though the mill could have been built in any number of places.

Joe Michaels said:

John:

The name "Imperial" could be nothing more than a "badge" type of name. Imported machine tools were often made by otherwise unknown firms, and were often re-sold under the seller's label or badge. Names that might have some relevance in the country the machine tools were marketed in were chosen by the seller. The seller might be back in the country where the machine tool was made, or might be a seller in the country where the tools were marketed. Examples of this are the "Bridgeport clones"- having names like "Hartford", "Big Joe", or even "Grizzly". A machine tool dealer in Brooklyn, NY sold lathes made in Korea as the US distributor, branding the lathes as "Lansing". Spanish, Belgian, Italian, and countries in the former Soviet Union all produced machine tools that were "rebadged" for export sale. The firms marketing these tools in various countries such as the USA or England never owned a dedicated factory making the machine tools. They'd set up contracts with factories in places like Europe, China or Taiwan to build the machine tools and "badge" them with the seller's name. Years ago, I owned a "Rapid Precision" lathe. Never heard of it before getting it as a used lathe, never heard of it again for about 40 years- then, on this thread, the "rapid precision" lathe resurfaced. A person in some distant state had gotten hold of one, and was asking the same question I had asked some 40 years earlier. Turns out the "Rapid Precision" lathe was (as best as could be determined on this 'board) possibly German built for export to the USA, hence, it had fasteners made to US threads, and the name was "Rapid Precision"- no "made in Germany" tag on it, no manufacturer's name nor address. From what I have learned on Tony Griffith's site "Lathe Archive", the "badging" of machine tools by end-sellers (dealers or similar merchants) was and is quite common. With imported machine tools from places that might not have the best reputation or credibility, re-badging with a name that might lead a buyer to think the machine tool came from the same country it was marketed in was common. Similarly, a completely reputable machine tool builder in one country might have a totally unrecognized name outside that country. Badging in the country where the machine tools were marketed gave the tools a catchy or more believable name.

Click to expand...

Wow, thanks so much for the thoughtful and thorough response. Definitely gives me a lot to think about! I plan on taking a ride to see it tomorrow. The spindle size will probably be a deciding factor. Ill let you know what I find!
John

John:

Where in New York are you located ? I am in the Catskill Region. If you are in/near the Hudson Valley, and if you need a hand with getting that mill loaded/unloaded/moved into your shop I am happy to help.

Milling machine spindles are a wide-open topic. For many years, even after the National Machine Tool Builder's standard tapers (40 & 50 being the most common) took over, a lot of smaller mills were built with the Brown & Sharpe tapers. Number 9 B & S was fairly common, and tooling is still available for it.

The R-8 taper used on the Bridgeport J heads and a host of other light duty mills is widely, but on the "Imperial" mill, I have a feeling you are likely to find the B & S taper or possibly even a Morse taper. Whatever the spindle taper, if there is tooling on hand for it, you are that much ahead of the game. If not, tooling exists and it takes some hunting around used machinery dealers (scarcer these days than rare spindle taper tooling, unfortunately), or ebay.

If the mill is in reasonable condition, nothing broken or missing and runs properly, I'd say grab it. While tooling such as end mill holders or collets is nice to have, in the worst case, end mill holders and arbors can be made from scratch. Some time spent at the lathe, bluing in the taper that you turn to check the fit in the spindle of the mill, and you can make quite serviceable end mill holders and arbors.

joe:

I am in Norwich NY, north of Binghamton. The mill is located near Kingston. I have a trailer I intend to use to haul, I believe the seller has a forklift. I don't believe there will be much tooling with the mill, but as you say, there is a bit out there with a little hunting, and an end-mill holder will suit my needs just fine--for a while anyway.
John

Hello John:

I am about 25 miles west of Kingston on NYS Route 28. I am glad to hook up with you to move the mill out onto your trailer. Send a PM if you need a hand.
I am familiar with Norwich as we used to pass thru it en route to different places such as visiting a nephew when he was at Colgate. A buddy goes to a great automotive swap meet or flea market in Norwich each year and scores some really good tools and old car parts.

When we head to the midwest, we run out on NYS Route 30 around the Pepacton Reservoir, picking up NYS Route 17 to Binghamton, and then onto I 86. Getting from Norwich to Kingston, you will almost have to run past the turnoff for my house off NYS Route 28.

Send a PM if you need a hand or want to hook up. I've got a 1 1/2 ton CM chain comealong, pinch bars, flanging wedges (to get machine tools up off the floor so rollers can be put under them) and rigging for getting machine tools up onto trailers.

Regards-
Joe Michaels

What little I can find indicates this might be an italian machine, but the exact maker is unknown.

allan

kitno455 said:

What little I can find indicates this might be an italian machine, but the exact maker is unknown.

allan

Click to expand...

Allan,
What did you find that indicates Imperial is Italian made? I found some info on Imperial metal Lathes manufactured by an Italian company SAFOP. Apparently they stopped making anything by that name in the late 60s I believe. That might correspond to the machines approx age. Just curious if thats the same info you found?
John

To John and Joe:
How do you guys like the Imperial machines? I found a vertical mill not too far from me that I’m looking into picking up but I haven’t been able to find any info on Imperial whatsoever, aside from this thread.

Joe

Made in Italy

The Imperial is made in Italy. There's one on Craigslist Baltimore now, and one of the photos shows a "Made In Italy" tag on the side.
Here's the label

hennesse said:

The Imperial is made in Italy. There's one on Craigslist Baltimore now, and one of the photos shows a "Made In Italy" tag on the side.
Here's the label View attachment 263481

Click to expand...

good detective work...