An Important Early Lathe by James Fox (many photos)

A handful of machines have survived in the UK which represent great leaps forward in machine tool technology.

One is the 200-year old Richard Roberts lathe in the London Science Museum.

Here’s another, in more representative surroundings, made by James Fox of Derby. Date: Believed to be c.1820, give or take a few years.

All-metal construction, box bed with V and flat ways, back-geared, screw cutting, clasp nut, powered carriage traverse with automatic feed cut-off. Tailstock can be set over. Tapered spindle bearings. Compound swivelling slide. Rack and pinion travel for carriage and tailstock. All the things we now take for granted, but very advanced compared with the typical lathes of this period.

I’ll say more about the history of this lathe later, when I’m hoping that 'Millwright' will help me out.

The lathe is on display - and workable via a lineshaft - at an outstanding industrial museum in South Yorkshire - Wortley Top Forge. I’ll aim to say much more about this site in other threads. Link to website:-

http://www.topforge.co.uk/

For my visit I had the great pleasure of Millwright’s company, and as an added bonus he’d arranged for us to get together with Ken Hawley, a remarkable man who’s made a vital contribution to saving historical industrial artefacts in the region, and to the establishment of Wortley Top Forge Museum.

The following photos show the automatic feed arrangement.

More to follow.

Could this be the basis for the term "Fox Lathe", used by Lodge & Davis, circa late 1800's? The catalog

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/docs/lodge/lodgedavis-foldout-brochure-nodate-si.pdf

references a "Hand Fox Lathe" and a "Fox Monitor Lathe" but I'm not sure of the resemblance- neither L&D "fox" has a traversing carriage... perhaps Mr Fox made a few different types.

Greg Menke said:

Could this be the basis for the term "Fox Lathe", used by Lodge & Davis, circa late 1800's? The catalog

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/docs/lodge/lodgedavis-foldout-brochure-nodate-si.pdf

references a "Hand Fox Lathe" and a "Fox Monitor Lathe" but I'm not sure of the resemblance- neither L&D "fox" has a traversing carriage... perhaps Mr Fox made a few different types.

Click to expand...

No.
That was George H. Fox.

Rob

Wonderful old machine. Thanks for posting.

Presently am reading great book about Beyer and Peacock, locomotive builders for about 112 years. Lots of old shop views in the book.

Locoguy,

Interesting that you should mention Beyer, Peacock. In post #1 I mentioned Richard Roberts’ 200 year old lathe. I exaggerated, as it’s only 195 years old. When I saw it, I was thrown off balance about the progress of engineering development, as it seemed so far ahead of its time. The Fox lathe had the same effect on me. Here’s a thread about Robert’s 1817 lathe:-

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/very-old-lathe-114230/

The 1817 Roberts lathe was bought by Beyer, Peacock in 1854 when Roberts gave up manufacturing, and was used by them until 1909, when they gave it to the Science Museum. Charles Beyer had been employed by Roberts before joining Peacock. (Source: Life and Inventions of Richard Roberts 1789 - 1864 by R L Hills).

I’ll return to the Fox lathe presently.

Going back to the James Fox lathe, the 'provenance' is known, but not by me! I was told, but can’t remember, so I’m hoping 'Millwright' will pop up and put me right.

I think I’m right in saying that the lathe is under the same roof as it always was. Not in the same building, though! Let me explain.

The lathe is upstairs in this building at the museum:-



Ken Hawley told us that the building was derelict, with the upper part of the wall above window ledge level (I think) missing. He managed to obtain some suitable replacement stone blocks from a ruined cottage, and the walls were rebuilt.

The roof members are cast iron, and were recovered from a demolished workshop building at Jedediah Strutt’s Milford Mill (textiles) in Derbyshire. Amazingly, they were exactly the right size, and more amazingly (or not, if I’ve got this wrong!) came from the building which originally housed the Fox lathe.

The roof castings are dated 1817:-


There's a write-up on some aspects of the restoration here:-

Restoration 2

We know that some other important Fox machine tools came from this workshop, their great importance having been recognised. A large lathe and planing machine went to the Birmingham Science Museum, and a small slotter to the London Science Museum. These are no longer displayed. Birmingham would argue lack of space following closure of its Science Museum and its replacement by 'Thinktank'. This is an expensive place to visit, which tries to appeal to everyone. Populist but not necessarily popular. When I was a few hundred yards away trying to find the place, no-one I asked had a clue what I was talking about. To be fair, the section devoted to old machinery is well worth a visit to see many marvellous and important artefacts that have been admitted to the new place.

London might also claim lack of space, but they would be unjustified. They could clear out some of the fairground rides, or use some of this sort of space:-



Some of the things that have been done at the London Science Museum are disgraceful. Nevertheless there’s still a vast range of superb exhibits which haven’t yet been turfed out, and I would unhesitatingly recommend a long visit there.

It might be argued that those Fox machines would be better taken out of storage and placed in Derby’s excellent industrial museum. However, this has been closed due to lack of comprehension on the part of the cultural bigwigs there.

To be fair, even people familar with machine tools - a dying breed - may not see the significance of early machines like these. I don't see this as a reason to hide them away, though.

I'll return to say something about James Fox and the other preserved Fox machines. I’ve just got to finish sticking pins in effigies of some sharp-suited Masters of the Art of disposal, who have also discarded that vital piece of paper which defines the purpose of a museum.

Having spoken to Ken Hawley: he confirmed that the lathe did come from the mechanics' shop at Milford, so the very early roof trusses may have protected the machine from the elements from the start.

Not wishing to steal Asquith's thunder from this fascinating thread, I must recommend Wortley Forge to any reader contemplating a trip to the North of England where not only the early forge machinery has been restored to working condition but the amazing collection of engines, machinery and equipment complement the ancient waterwheels,hammers and furnaces without being in any way obtrusive.

The so called designers and consultants alluded to in the Science Museum redisplay could learn much from a visit to Wortley Forge, But then we Yorkshiremen don't go big on *The Emperor's new clothes* museum types.

James Fox

Millwright,

Thanks for that. I’m looking forward to revealing more about this wonderful place.

Regarding James Fox, there are various brief accounts of his career, and those by Joshua Rose and L T C Rolt will be most familiar. Their information appears to come from one source: Samuel Smiles, who was wrote biographies of many engineers. I suspect that quantity won out over quality with Smiles. So, we haven’t got much to go on.

Rolt’s account says that Fox was a butler for the Rev Thomas Gisbourne of Foxhall Lodge, Staffordshire, who recognised his mechanical talents and provided the capital for Fox to set up business in Derby. Here he developed textile machinery, and made planers, lathes and slotters to facilitate production.

Derby was handy for the local silk industry and for the other textile industries in Nottingham and the Derwent valley. The key figures in cotton spinning in the area were Arkwright and Strutt, and these industries were the nucleus of the new technologies of the late 18th/early 19th centuries. The Derwent valley is a great place to visit to seek out our sort of stuff. Examples in this thread:-
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...rkwrights-aladdins-cave-machine-tools-204862/

Seeking more reliable information, I find that the Reverend’s name was Gisborne, not Gisbourne, he was a rich landowner, and his address was Yoxall Lodge, not Foxhall. Either he or his son was a prominent figure in the anti-slavery movement.

The information led me to a good source of information, in a surprising place: a property developer’s submission for planning permission:-

http://eplanning.derby.gov.uk/acolnet/DocumentsOnline/documents/25607_14.pdf

We learn that James Fox was a footman rather than a butler, and that in 1783 Rev Gisborne transferred a large plot of land to him in Derby in which to start his engineering works. The original site was near St Mary’s Bridge, and the firm later took over Union Foundry, which had been established by Edward Falconer. James Fox’s successors were his sons James and John, and they sold the works in 1868. It was taken over by Haslam & Co, refrigeration engineers and iron founders. In 1939 the site was taken over by E W Bliss of the USA.

I found this in an online copy of an 1829 guide book:-

I heard much from all the manufacturers of Derby, of the mechanical ingenuity of Mr. James Fox, of Chester Road, on the banks of the Derwent. I paid him a visit, and beheld his powerful iron lathes, twenty-four feet long, used by machine makers for planing iron. Here I saw iron cut in groves or squared with great simplicity, by duly adjusting the velocity so as to generate no heat, for a velocity, which generates heat, destroys the tool. These lathes, Mr. Fox makes for machinists in all parts of the kingdom, and gets from £200. to £700. for them. The castings are made at Morley Park; and I was sorry to learn that they are now delivered at £7. a ton instead of £30. the usual and legitimate price. In truth, the depression of the iron trade is as great or greater than that of the other staples of the kingdom.

Source:-
The Mirror of Literature, Issue 365.

A search on Morley Park showed that the ironworks and foundry were among the most important in their day. They also made the big castings for Dakeyne’s remarkable disc engine discussed in posts #8 & 10 in this thread:-
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/magic-machinery-229983/

The foundry’s workers must have witnessed some incomprehensible leaps in technology, even if they didn’t know what their castings were to be used for.

Thanks for posting. Fascinating feed mechanism for the saddle, dog clutch reverse and all. Also looks like it would have a decent number of speeds. Do you know how original it is?

Ueee,

We’ll probably never know whether any components were removed or added. It would be an interesting exercise to scrutinise the lathe closely to look for signs of alteration. However, I see no reason to doubt that the lathe is substantially original.

It may be that the history of the machine is known to the museum, from inventories or whatever. All I can do here is to draw on the limited information I have to compare the Wortley lathe with other examples of Fox’s lathe design from surviving examples or drawings or written information.

1818 Drawing
In 1818 the Museé des Arts et Métiers in Paris received drawings of a Fox lathe. The date of the lathe represented is not known. Parts have been redrawn and are shown in W Steeds’ A History of Machine Tools 1700 - 1910. In essence the features are the same as the lathe at Wortley, except for the lack of a leadscrew and a very much smaller and simpler headstock.

'1817 - 1827' Lathe in Birmingham
Steeds’ book also includes photos and information on the former Birmingham Science Museum’s Fox lathe. This is larger than the Wortley lathe, having a much longer bed, but the design is very similar, except for the lack of a leadscrew. The lathe was dated at 1817 - 1827, although Steeds was ‘inclined to put it five to ten years later’, without giving reasons. The lathe also features in LTC Rolt’s Tools for the Job, and it is interesting to note that, like the Wortley lathe and the Birmingham’s planer and London Science Museum's slotter, it came from Milford Mill. Rolt says: '… they were used in the construction and maintenance of textile machinery. They were driven by waterwheel and as the date 1817 appears on the cast-iron beams and line-shafting brackets of the building that was evidently built to house them, it is reasonable to ascribe them to this year. The machines have been attributed to William Strutt, but while Strutt was a most ingenious engineer and was undoubtedly responsible for the Milford building, the advanced and masterly design of the tools clearly reveals the hand of Fox'''.

Other Examples
Rolt also says that one of the exported lathes is preserved in the Sielpa Wielka Museum in Poland, while the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers has a model built in 1830 of a Fox lathe which had a swing of 27" and a 22 ft bed. This is illustrated in Steeds’ book, and it doesn’t have a leadscrew.

Wortley Top Forge Lathe
We know that it has the main features which Fox was definitely using by 1818, but with the addition of a leadscrew and a more sophisticated headstock. We also know that it came from an 1817 machine shop. Could the leadscrew have been added later? I think this unlikely. Referring to this photo below, it can be seen that the housing for the clasp nut is bolted to an extension of the carriage casting. If it had been added later, it would have been a simple matter to bolt an extension on the carriage, but in fact the extension is integral, and it would have been illogical to cast a new carriage and undertake all the associated machining and fitting to accommodate the clasp nut housing.



Incidentally, the drive end of the leadscrew bracket shows distinct planing marks. See below. This provides no dating information at all, as Fox started making planing machines some time between 1810 and 1820!

Asquith said:

Ueee,

......

Other Examples
Rolt also says that one of the exported lathes is preserved in the Sielpa Wielka Museum in Poland, while the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers has a model built in 1830 of a Fox lathe which had a swing of 27" and a 22 ft bed. This is illustrated in Steeds’ book, and it doesn’t have a leadscrew.
...

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Hi,
I started searching information about Fox Derby lathe after I've visited museum in Sielpia and I've found your discussion about this lathe. Museum is impressive, they have many old machines. I've made many pictures so if you want see details, please vist my blog - Notatki warsztatowe: Historycznie - Tokarka Fox | Derby - Muzem w Sielpi Wielkiej

nawarsztacie,

Many thanks for the photos, here and on your blog.

Some time ago I tried to find out more about the lathe and other machines at Sielpia, and spent much time trying to find photos online. Having found photos, I was frustrated by the lack of information, so it’s great that we now have input from someone who understands the significance of the machines. I’ll study the photos closely.

I also did more research into Fox of Derby, and put my findings here:-

Fox of Derby

I found from an 1840s French report that Fox supplied large machines to the Bialogon Machine Works near Kielce. This developed into what is now the pump-making business Kielecka Fabryka Pomp. Some or all of the machines now displayed at Sielpia Wielka came from Bialogon Machine Works.

The Kielecka Fabryka Pomp website states that industrial activity started at the Bialogon site with the construction of a smelting mill in 1814-1817. Smelting ended and attention turned to machinery production in 1827. English engineers and mechanics were brought in, and modern machines were ordered in Manchester and Derby. Hence the Fox lathe now at Sielpia can be dated at post-1827.

There is another early large lathe of unusual design at Sielpia. It is a combined centre lathe and wheel (or facing) lathe. Some of the features, including the wide bed with vee and flat ways, and the shape of the tailstock, are consistent with those on Fox's lathes, but it is an unsophisticated machine, and the workmanship appears to be cruder than in surviving Fox machines.

I was intrigued by what machines might have been sent from Manchester. In 1827 the leading machine tool maker in Manchester was Sharp, Roberts and Co (Roberts being the brilliant Richard Roberts). I found that early in 1827 they had shipped a slide lathe, a planing machine, and a drilling machine to the order of the Polish Government. A large wall-mounted Sharp, Roberts radial arm drilling machine is among the machines from Bialogon now displayed at Sielpia Wielka. This can be seen in the first photo in your blog.

There is a large planing machine in the same photo, and a small one behind, in the corner. These are obviously very old. The small machine is described as a Fox planer from the first half of the 19th century. I doubt this, as it does not appear to have anything in common with known Fox planers. I wonder if either of these two planers might have come from Sharp, Roberts. I know nothing about their early planers, although Richard Robert’s first planer (1817) had a chain-driven table, as do the two old machines at Sielpia.

Do you have more photos of the various machines at Sielpia that you could share with us?

Thanks for link to your blog. I am not good at reading the language, but I interpret the punctuation and numbers!

muckalee said:

Thanks for link to your blog. I am not good at reading the language, but I interpret the punctuation and numbers!

Click to expand...

I viewed the site with Google Chrome browser. Google will translate sites in foreign languages to English. The translations are usually a bit strange, with odd grammar and the occasional puzzling word, but it is usually possible to understand the result. It makes the Polish about 95% decent English. And the pictures are great.

Larry

Thanks for the pictures of that early lathe. That is a very interesting museum. I did a google image search and found a lot of other pictures of the museum. There are a couple of interesting early steam engines there as well.

Asquith said:

nawarsztacie,

...

There is a large planing machine in the same photo, and a small one behind, in the corner. These are obviously very old. The small machine is described as a Fox planer from the first half of the 19th century. I doubt this, as it does not appear to have anything in common with known Fox planers. I wonder if either of these two planers might have come from Sharp, Roberts. I know nothing about their early planers, although Richard Robert’s first planer (1817) had a chain-driven table, as do the two old machines at Sielpia.

Do you have more photos of the various machines at Sielpia that you could share with us?

Click to expand...

I haven't looked for a long time.. I have a lot of photos from the museum in Sielpia because I'm interested in metalworking and I live in Kielce area and I have 7 km for Sielpia. I have also good photo documentation from another very interested museum in Maleniec. There is complete iron processing manufactory driven by water wheel
Zabytkowy Zakład Hutniczy w Maleńcu - Zwiedzanie
Fabryka HD - YouTube
I did not check if they have machines from Fox and now all musems are closed.

Finaly I'm starting work on publishing photos from Sielpia and Maleniec and I'll let you know
I wish you health in these difficult times

Paweł Guzikowski

Pawel,

Good to hear from you again.

I have since visited the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris and studied their c.1830 large scale model of a Fox lathe, which very closely resembles the long-bed Fox lathe at Sielpia. It may be a model, but it weighs 57 kg!

The Musée also has a large model of a Fox planing machine, made c.1833, and a model of a threading machine, c.1830.

Regarding the large duplex lathe at Sielpia, an identical lathe made by Fox was described and illustrated in a German article in 1832.

For updated information, see:-

Fox of Derby - Graces Guide

It is probable that the radial arm drilling machine at Sielpia was made by Sharp, Roberts & Co of Manchester, possibly as early as 1827.

Two machines that intrigue me at Sielpia are the two chain-driven planing machines, makers unknown. I would appreciate seeing any photos you are able to obtain, when the good times return.

Best wishes,

John

Regarding the wall-mounted radial arm drill at Sielpia Wielka: I said that it was probably made by Sharp, Roberts and Co, possibly as early as 1827. 1827 seems early for such a machine. I feel that I ought to ‘show my working’ here.

The drilling machine at Sielpia is the same type as that illustrated by W. Steeds in A History of Machine Tools, 1700-1910. He names the maker as Sharp, Robert & Co. The same drawing is shown by Richard Hills in Life and Inventions of Richard Roberts 1789-1864. However, he went to the original source, IMechE Proceedings 1857-8, and found that it the machine ascribed to 'Messrs. Sharp of Manchester'. The company name changed from Sharp, Roberts to Sharp Brothers in 1843. The date of the publication and the stated name of the maker do not rule out an earlier date, but we will now look at other information.

We know that in early 1827 Sharp, Roberts & Co had shipped a slide lathe, planing machine, and a drilling machine for the Polish Government (the machines were held back for 7 months by Customs officers at Liverpool!). [Ref W H Chaloner, Newcomen Soc, 1968].

Richard Hills refers to a Richard Roberts’ catalogue of 1826 which includes radial arm drills in its products. However, Sharp, Roberts & Co’s list of products does not mention radial arm drills.

The next mention I've found is in 1838, when the Paris & Orleans Railway ordered five machines from Sharp, Roberts & Co for their repair shops, including a radial arm drill ('machine a percer, radiale').