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Joined the exclusive Royersford Excelsior 21" Camel Back club !

Bowtie_Finn

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Location
Roanoke
After a year or two of looking - finally came across an old camel back that wasn’t in the 700-1300$ range (they are getting pricey for one reason or next?) - was able to find this old Royersford Excelsior 21" for a cool 100$ + a 1.5 hour road trip !

This old guy is in pretty good shape, but has 2 broken teeth on one of the back gears - as can be seen in the pic (but looks well fixable)

It has a 1 hp motor on her now, but am have a new 2 hp one sitting on a shelf that I’m thinking would look stylish on this machine!

Anyone have thought on what is causing the spike in prices for old iron line shaft machines - that were once considered scrap? YouTube popularizing then maybe !?! I remember my dad buying these things by the dozen for the price of a coke lol!
 

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By the time I bought mine, there were two or three siting outside a barn in the weather. They were all different camelbacks but the Royersford Excelsior showed more promise. The motor and step pulley sat on the back of the base, so these were "electrified". Mine also has a tooth missing in a miter gear.
They had power feed with MT #3 or 4 so that did it. Dull drills under pressure.
 
If anything drove up the price of the camelback drills, it is the "industrial look" being the "in" thing with the trendy/hip crowd. These people are the cause of ghouls buying old lathes and other machine tools for the cast iron legs and cast iron pedestal bases to make furniture for trendy restaurants, lofts apartments and similar.

Last May, at the antique and general machinery auction over in Hudson, NY, I saw how the price of a camelback drill went to the moon. A Canedy-Otto camelback drill with number 3 MT spindle was being auctioned. It was pretty much complete with no visible damage, no major rust, but from dis=use, seemed to be frozen. Two characters in the crowd of bidders got the fever. That drill fetched about one thousand dollars ($ 1000.00 USD). I was astonished. A fixable Allis-Chalmers small bulldozer with power angle blade & pretty good undercarriage went for about $350. A Gravely Commercial 10A tractor with a load of implements went for 25 bucks.
We got a Joy rotary screw compressor (gas engine drive, about a 150 cfm compressor), good runner, low hours, for $650.00 and towed it home the next day.

There is no accounting for people's tastes and what is suddenly trendy or the "in" thing to have in one's home/apartment. Camelback drills do have some nice flowing lines to them and are "interesting" to look at. People who will never use them as drills are likely buying them to put in the entry foyers of new restaurants and clubs, or to use as furniture (the drill press tables could hold some bottles of white wine and a plate of some fancy cheese that looks like putrefaction).

Add to the mix the steam punk crowd. This bunch are like magpies or crows when it comes to grabbing up anything old and made of brass. Lubricators, petcocks, gauges, and similar stuff is now priced astronomically.

It's a sad day when a perfectly good machine tool goes for less than scrap at auction, and is left there afterwards, minus its legs and any other smaller castings which "look interesting".
 
Welcome to the club! I have one with three teeth partially missing on the back gear. Easy fix if I ever get around to it, but I’ve had it for ten years and never had a need for the back gear. The slowest speed w/o the back gear is 97 RPM, Hell, I’d have to speed it up for a 2” HSS drill, the max capacity for the machine. Actually I think the “specified” max capacity is 1 ½ “, but I figure if I can find it in a MT4 it’s good to go.

BTW, if you’ve never been around these drill presses make sure your work is properly clamped or in a mounted vise to avoid dislocated or broken fingers. These machines have a lot of torque, and your fingers, hand, arm, and body will give way before that belt slips!
 
Welcome to the club! I have one with three teeth partially missing on the back gear. Easy fix if I ever get around to it, but I’ve had it for ten years and never had a need for the back gear.

Thanks wlpier - that's good to know the back gears are hardly needed !!! what HP motor do you have on yours ? I thinking about replacing the old 1hp on it with a new 2hp I have lying around - not sure if that would be just right or overkill !
 
The stock motors were 1 HP 1750 RPM. They were designed to have a lower counter shaft speed of 300 RPM. Great drills. Mine had back gear issues. I replaced mine with a stock gears from Browning/Martin I can't recall which.
 
Bowtie Finn:

I have a 25" Cincinnati Bickford camelback drill in my own shop. It was built with a factory motor drive, the motor having a rawhide (or phenolic, not sure) pinion driving a cast iron bull gear on the lower cone pulley shaft. It has a 3 HP repulsion-induction motor ( 1 ph, 220 volts, nice classic open frame). I believe this drill was built for use during WWI as the quill depth graduations are inch and metric. With its own motor drive, set up for 220 volts, it could have been intended for use overseas in field repair shops. No line shaft necessary.

I paid 200 bucks for my Cincinnati Bickford drill, and from all indications, it had seen little use. One thing I did do was to clean and identify each "oiling point" on that drill. Then, I made an oil can for the job. I had a Eagle pump oil can I fished out of the trash when I was in college. It was in the trash because the flex spout was destroyed. I made a new spout out of 1/4" diameter stainless steel tubing, with a 90 degree bend so the spout is horizontal when the oil can is set on a level surface. I made a smaller nozzle type tip and silver brazed it to the stainless tubing. I made the spout nice and long to get into the hard-to-access locations on the Cincinnati Bickford drill. Before each use, I take a small stepladder (I stand 5'-10" tall) and get up on it so I can oil the higher locations. I make sure to oil down into the crown gear on the spindle. There is a hole in the web of this gear to drop oil down to the phenolic thrust washer between the hub of the gear and the top of the frame/spindle bearing. I go over the drill with my oil can before I start it up. I also take off the leather flat belt when the drill is not being used. This lets the belt shrink or keep its original length (more or less). Leaving a flat belt under tension over time in muggy weather will cause the belt to take a permanent stretch and be too slack to really transmit the load.

I did replace the thrust bearings on the spindle. The original thrust bearing was a ball bearing assembly which had gone to pieces years before. A previous owner was running a thrust washer between the hardened thrust races. I took mike readings and got new ball thrust bearings from Kaman Industrial Technologies. Not much money at the time. I also replaced the motor brushes as they were worn down and arcing badly. 65 bucks for a set of new motor brushes from Helwig Carbon. Helwig is a great outfit and we used them at the powerplant to supply large generator and exciter brushes. Helwig asked the type of motor and determined the right carbon density, as well as having a stock size with correct pigtail based on my measurements.

Aside from oiling the drill before each use, never get too friendly or too familiar with your camelback drill. It is a vastly different machine than a round-column drill with vee belt drive. These old camelback drills develop a great deal more torque than a vee-belt driven light-duty drill press. Make sure to clamp your work or clamp your vise to the table of the drill when you use it. I call it "dogging things down". I keep a couple of old olive oil tins on the base of my Cincinnati Bickford drill with various tee-nuts, studs, pieces of all thread, pieces of structural steel and angle drilled for the studs, large flat washers, slotted links, etc. This "jewelry" is handy to dog jobs or vises to the table of the drill. Even if you had an emergency "off" switch, or were able to declutch the drill (as from a line shaft) in an emergency, the stored energy in the rotating parts will cause that drill to continue coasting down. If some part of your anatomy is being clamped and held by the drill because a job spun on the table when the drill grabbed it, you are either going to get wound up with it, or have some sort of crushing injury.

Take the extra few minutes up front to secure or dog down your work before you use the camelback drill. For small diameter drills, you can setup a stop bar on the table (a piece of angle iron with a couple of bolts) to buck the work against. This will take the torque reaction. For larger drills, use slotted links, stepped blocks, studs, tee nuts, and whatever else you have to use to make sure the work is held solidly.

I also keep a set of taper-reducing sleeves and drift keys for knocking tapered shanks and sleeves loose hanging off the belt guard on my camelback drill. Years earlier, someone had made a belt guard out of woven wire mesh and angle iron. Looking at the riveting and bolting done to make that guard, it probably goes back to the 20's, before people would have used oxyacetylene brazing to fasten the woven mesh to the framing of the guard.

Here is a tip I've used for years: I got hold of some large "blanket pins"- look like safety or diaper pins on steroids. I use these blanket pins to hold and organize sets of box wrenches in my toolboxes. On my first job out of school, I saw the pipefitters taking welding rod, beating the flux off it, and forming "diaper pins" to hold their "strikers" (spark lighters for oxyacetylene torches) off the hammer loops on their overalls. I've made quite a few of these "blanket pins out of 1/8" diameter E 7018 welding rod to hold various tools that need to be organized and kept in one spot. A "blanket pin" made from welding rod hands off the guard of my camelback drill with a full set of drift keys.

Other items I keep handy by the camelback drill are pieces of hardwood and plywood. These come in handy if I am drilling thru a job of no great precision (like blacksmith or structural steel work), and keep the drills from running into the table. A piece of hardwood or plywood under a rough job will also improve the "bite", letting the high points on a job's surface dig into the wood, and improving the overall contact with the table of the drill.

These old drills are great machines, but you have to work accordingly. dogging jobs to the table is probably the foremost safety rule I can think of. No matter how much time you spend restoring one of these old drills, getting a flawless enamel high gloss paint job on it, polishing the machined parts, taking up excess play in the babbitted bearings and much else, at the end of the day, the drill is still an inanimate hunk of iron with no feelings for you. If a drill grabs and takes the job and the vise for a ride, and you are hanging onto that vise, that drill will not hesitate to wind you up with the job and vise. No emergency stop button or similar is going to save you in this sort of situation. These things happen in the blink of an eye, and the coast-down of the driveline in these old drills has enough stored energy to keep winding you in and dislocating, crushing, lacerating or breaking any of your body parts caught in the works.

I make a rule never to reach in or around the drill (or counterbore or reamer) on my own camelback drill until it has completely stopped turning. I also do not handle the chips barehanded. A steel turning (chip) can cut your finger to the bone and slice tendons before you know it happened. Do not attempt to remove or clear chips when the machine is running. Use a hook, pliers, or stout work gloves to handle the chips.

I've run jobs on my camelback drill where I was taking chips out by the wheelbarrow load. Cutting oil (except when drilling cast iron) never hurt. I use sulphur/lard containing cutting oil which I buy in gallon jugs at the local plumbing supply. It is used on pipe threading machines, and does fine for drilling in carbon steel or steel alloys.

I use ISO 46 tractor hydraulic oil in the bearings on my camelback drill and in all my old machine tools. ISO 46 corresponds to roughly an SAE 20 weight oil. Tractor hydraulic oil goes under an old designation of "DTE medium". DTE is an oil classification pre-dating automobiles and means "dynamo, turbine, engine". DTE series oils are mineral based, straight viscosity, and tractor hydraulic fluid will have antifoaming and anticorrosion additives. Nothing that will hurt any "yellow metal parts" (brass or bronze) on older machine tools.

My other piece of advice is try to use taper shank drills whenever possible. Turned shank drills (also known as "Silver and Deming Drills" or "blacksmith shank" drills) are OK, but the shanks more often than not get easily bent and chewed up. The torque needed to run larger drills will cause the turned shanks to often slip in the chuck jaws. Tapered shank drills will run truer, and with the tang on the small end of the taper, will have a positive drive coupling with the spindle. Turned shank drill rely on friction between the chuck jaws and the drill shank. Some of the turned shank drills have flats milled on the shanks, but after hard use, there may be gouges in the shanks and the shanks will almost always have a bend to them.

Accumulating taper shank drills is easily done, as they often go for small money at flea markets and similar. I am old school, so sharpen these larger drills freehand. Being able to sharpen twist drills freehand was a skill taught to me when I was a kid in Brooklyn Technical HS in the 60's. It was expected I would have this skill when I worked in machine shops. Unless you are doing toolroom work, sharpening a larger diameter drill freehand will work fine. It's amazing how a little nick or damage to the cutting lips of a twist drill will mess up the work, and more amazing how a quick touch up of a twist drill on a grinder will get that drill cutting like a hot knife thru warmed butter.
 
Thanks for the great advise and cautions. I bet you saved some injuries from that post. Since the "group" is so small now, I just gave everybody a "Like". That was because everyone had something unique to say about this machine. If I quit "Liking" it doesn't mean I "Don't Like".
 
These old camelback drills had slow spindle speeds for several reasons:

-consider the times when those drills were designed and in widespread use. Carbon steel drills were about all there was available. Carbon steel cutting tools
are run at much lower cutting speeds than high speed steel (HSS- the most commonly used steel for twist drills, reamers, and counterbores).

-going with the times when those drills were designed in widespread use, hand forged flat drills were also in occasional use. These ran at even slower spindle speeds.

-The camelback drills were designed to be run off lineshafting and the camelback drills were "plain bearing machine tools. The spindle bearings on many of these older camelback drills consisted of the spindle running in a bored fit in the spindle quill. No bronze bushings, no "antifriction" bearings (ball bearings, roller bearings, and needle bearings come under this heading). Ball bearings were used to take the thrust load on the spindle, and were often the only ball bearings on the entire drill. Many of the shafts such as for power feeds, ran in bored fits in the iron castings. As long as surface speeds (feet/minute) of the rotating journals was low and things were kept oiled, this type of bearing could last several over the life of the original owner and his heirs and successors.

-The bearings on these old drills were "total loss" oiling, and oil ran out of the bearings. Running at higher speeds (higher rpm), chances are the oil would be slung off the shafting and "corkscrewed" along the shaft journals and out of the bearings at a very rapid rate.

-parts like the cone pulleys were usually not balanced for higher speeds.

Thinking of the times when camelback drills were in widespread use, it was an era when machinists often shaped work by hand filing and roughed it to size by hand chipping with a hammer and cold chisel or cape chisel. Machines like shapers and planers were in common use, and these were also slow propositions. A man running a job on a bigger planer could get his newspaper, sit on the platen of the planer riding up and back with the work, and read most of his newspaper before the cut was done. Those were the times and men might spend their entire working lives at the bench, hand filing, chipping and scraping to fit parts- jobs which would later be done on machine tools like vertical mills and precision grinders in a relatively shorter and much easier (physically) process.

Camelback drills are survivors amongst old machine tools. A drill press is useful, and it is a machine tool which finds a lot of use outside of traditional machine shops. Camelback drills survived long after the lineshaft driven machine tools from that same era had been scrapped. The camelback drills were re-powered with electric motors and often wound up in shops needing to drill fairly large diameter holes. My own camelback drill came from a shop which built custom bodies for heavy trucks and did truck frame work. That shop had started as a blacksmith and wagon building shop, and I actually for a few anvil tools for forming the calks on draft horse shoes (calks being lugs or "grousers" on draft horse shoes to enable the shoe to bite into snow, ice, and slippery terrain) when I got my camelback drill. Structural steel fabricators, boiler shops, farm implement repair shops, and similar types of businesses kept the camelback drills in use. They were not looking for speed nor accuracy if they were drilling an occasional few holes in structural steel or similar work. If a shop was small, maybe a family business with one or two people in the shop, no one was going to kick up a row about a camelback drill. In a larger machine shop, no one wanted a machine tool that had to be manually oiled before each use, and had a mess or unguarded moving parts.

Royersford may well have been the last manufacturer of camelback drills in the USA. I believe they were still producing them into the 1970s. What intrigues me about camelback drills is the overall similarities in design from one manufacturer to the next. Differences in power feed mechanisms and back gearing design seem to be the major deviations from one maker to the next. Overall, the camelback drills seem fairly close in design and capacity from one maker to another. I am guessing that there was nothing unique enough to be patentable in the design of the frames, tables, and basic mechanism of a camelback drill. They are good old classic machine tools and were once quite common in repair garages and weld shops and similar places. Now, you hardly see them in real working shops, probably due to any number of reasons starting with compliance with safety regulations and what the workman's comp insurer will allow to be used (wanting to minimize their risk exposure). Add the super lightweight magnetic based portable drills and the use of "Rota Broach" , "Slugger", or similar hollow-end-mill type cutters for making holes. Those developments stood a lot of drilling of larger diameter holes on its ear. A person can carry a compact mag base drill with one hand, set it up at or on the work, use the hollow end mill type cutters to make larger diameter holes in one shot. I am sure the compact mag base drills and hollow end mill type cutters caused a few of the camelback drills to be finally put outside the shop to rust. I've used these new compact mag base drills with the hollow end mill type cutters, and I used the older portable mag base drills which had a number 3 MT spindle socket. You needed to have a good breakfast to left and carry the older mag based drills, and you wound up step drilling up until you got to the larger diameter drill size you needed. You always put a safety chain on the mag base drill if you were drilling out of position or up on a structure. If the power conked out or someone "borrowed" your extension cord, the safety chain kept the mag base drill from falling. It was often such a pain to lug and setup a mag base drill that using a camelback drill was often somewhat easier. Been there, done that.

Set up your job on horses, or support one end of long work off a chain hoist and sling with a level put on the work, and you could easily run a long and heavy job thru a camelback drill. It is how I setup and drill long pieces of structural steel for some of the jobs that come thru my own shop. With a sling around the work, and having a chainfall on a trolley on a rolling gantry, I can handle long/heavy jobs on my camelback drill and do it while working alone.

I do use the back gears on my own camelback drill, particularly when running larger diameter reamers and counterbores. As I wrote, these drills are SLOW, but they WILL get the jobs done. Again, if we think back to the era when these drills were commonly used in shops, the speed at which they handled the work was in line with every other machine tool in the shop and how work in general was done. Now, we take a camelback drill and use it in an era of high speed or carbide tools, portable mag based drills, and so much else, and the camelback drill is slow and high maintenance. They are usually affordable, and if used intelligently, can get out some heavy work as I well know. If I want to run smaller diameter drills ( 1/2" and under), I use my Powermatic round-column drill press. If I want to run a boring head, I use the Bridgeport. If I want to push larger diameter drills thru structural steel or similar, I use the camelback drill. Each machine tool has its place and while there may be some overlap in the perfomance and capacity, the two different designs of drill presses both are needed in my shop.
 
Thanks for the great advise and cautions. I bet you saved some injuries from that post. Since the "group" is so small now, I just gave everybody a "Like". That was because everyone had something unique to say about this machine. If I quit "Liking" it doesn't mean I "Don't Like".

I agree - all this advice prob saved one of my digits :)

Thanks again everyone for the detailed write ups, the knowledge on this forum and the willingness of everyone to share is inspiring!

Can’t wait to start the resto on this ! (Still not sure why ppl restore muscle cars - when they can restore one of these :smoking:)
 
I have a Cannedy-Otto flat belt drill press and my favorite feature is the auto feed and stop. I have drilled a lot of bolt and rivet holes without having to be constantly within "wind-up" distance of the work or grabbing distance of those long shavings.

-Adair
 








 
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