K.O. Lee Tool & Cutter Grinder questions

Last week, my buddy & I drove up to Oswego, NY and picked up the K.O. Lee tool and cutter grinder I had bought from member Marka. Marka has an amazing shop with a lineup of classic US machine tools, all 'heavy hitters'. The building itself is a classic with 'monitor' or 'clerestory' roof line. Between Covid-19 and miles yet to be turned, we did not have a lengthy visit, but were happy to meet Marka and see his shop. He loaded the K.O. Lee tool and cutter grinder with a brand-spanking-new Kubota tractor/loader and we soon were on our way home again.

The total day's events amounted to 12 1/2 hours. I offloaded the grinder and its base with my own tractor. I have to hand it to K.O. Lee: they did not skimp on the cabinet base for the grinder. It is a massive iron casting. The only part of it which is sheet metal is the cabinet door.

The K.O. Lee grinder is an older model (possibly a 360) from what I can tell, the smallest T & C grinder in K.O. Lee's lineup. The grinder came with a load of flat belt pulleys to drive the grinder spindle. From what I got from an online K.O. Lee manual, the spindle is a B 6055 B. This has a fairly small female grinder taper at one end, and a plain 5/8" threaded arbor at the other.

There is a fairly small diameter steel flat belt pulley on the 5/8" arbor end of the spindle, with enough of the 5/8" spindle/threads projecting to mount grinding wheels. The other end of the spindle has a flange that is approximately flush with the outer circumference of the quill. There is a very small vee groove in this flange, which seems like it would be a vee belt sheave integral with the spindle.

The grinder came with quite a number of flat belt pulleys, and two belt guards. No vee belt pulley for the motor was with the grinder.

My question is: what profile of vee belt is used on these grinders & where can I purchase them ? For whatever reaso n, this grinder came with quite a number of different sized flat belt pulleys. The combinations of flat belt pulleys should give me spindle speeds sufficient for most sizes of wheels and mounted grinding points. Nevertheless, the K.O. Lee manual I found online makes no mention of flat belt spindle drives, only the vee belts. Could the flat belt drives mean this is a fairly old grinder ? Sopko has the replacement flat belts, so no problem in that department.

As for the vee belt drive: I can machine an aluminum vee belt sheave for the motor & static balance it. Along these same lines: Sopko does not appear to offer small arbors with the male 'standard grinder taper' (3 inches/foot). If anyone has any of these small arbors to sell, please let me know. If not, I will make those arbors as the need arises. Having the motorized work head, I can finish grind the taper and straight portions of the arbors, a nice little exercise.

The grinder came with an arbor having a 1/4" collet on a tapered male shank. That was it for arbors. I did check with Wm Sopko, and they offer adapters for the 5/8" plain arbors to mount various grinding wheels. No sense re-inventing the wheel (sorry about the pun), so I will contact Sopko for the wheel adapters.

I got a motorized workhead, along with a dead center/drive pulley for it, and a 4 jaw chuck. The workhead spindle came with a 5C collet closer, so I am all set and quite pleased with what I got. There is also a tailstock along with an assortment of wheel guards with the grinder, and a variety of odds-and-ends.

The female taper end of the spindle is evidently meant to run much smaller diameter wheels or mounted grinding 'points', so the vee belt drive seems the likely means to get up to higher spindle speeds.

Tooling needed for the grinder:

- 'universal' workhead (not sure if this is the correct name for it), preferably taking the 5C collets, for holding end mills and similar. If anyone has one of these workheads, preferably a smaller one to sell, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

-'finger' to run in flutes of cutters and reamers (plenty of micrometer adjustable fingers on ebay as used items, no problem to make a mounting for them).

Another buddy gave me a birthday present of a Weldon end mill sharpening fixture (for grinding the cutting edges and relief angles on the sides of the end mills). This needs the 'finger' as well.

This K.O. Lee grinder is not much bigger than an automotive valve grinding machine (or so it seems to me). It is just the right size for my shop. Some cleaning-up and checking of table way lubrication (have not had the table off as yet), and a 3-phase power converter and I should be ready to start playing with it. I am quite pleased with the grinder, as it is a basic tool and cutter grinder, with the bonus of the motorized work head.

Thanks again to member Marka for holding the grinder until I could get up to Oswego and to my buddy Robert who made the run with me.

I have an older K.O. Lee with the flat belt setup similar to yours that is still waiting me for me to do some work on it.
I noticed Leblond had parts breakdowns and lists for the older K.O. lee machines on line but last I checked they were no longer at the link I saved but they may still have the information
If I remember the newer grinding wheel spindle assemblies had something like the Gates Polyflex Vee belts that come in a number of sizes .
You could compare your pulley with the data shown in the link and see if something matches.
GATES POLYFLEX(R) - Industrial Belt Drives
You could then probably get a belt the length and size you need through a Gates distributor.
I have similar belts on a couple of machines here and as I recall they are not that expensive.
I find they flex easily have good traction and run well at high speed on small pulleys compared to conventional Vee belts.
There are probably other companies like Dayco who make the same or similar belts but I'm not familiar with their brand names or specifications .
I'll take a look and see what other information I can find in a few days if you don't get all the answers you are looking for from someone else.
Regards,
Jim

No pictures didn't happen. :d

Yeah, the Gates 5M series Polyflex belts were the up grade to the K O Lee grinder over the years. They changed over to the Polyflex belt sometime in the 1970's from the flat belt. My 1979 model KO Lee T & C grinder still had one of the flat belt pulleys on the spindle next to the sheave for the Polyflex belt. If interested, I have drawn up the sheaves for all of the speed changes along with some of the other accessories mentioned I can send you. Send me a PM with your email address, don't reply here. Ken

I have a brochure from 1978 where they have the Polyflex belts that I could scan some time.
I think I have one showing the flat belt machine with the various pulleys as well but I'll have to look more later.
There are several listings on Vintage machinery that you can study and even though your model may not be listed many of the parts , grinding heads, work heads and grinding wheel adapters were shared among several models over many years.
You could buy the base machine and share some of the accessories with models of a different size or age.
Earlier models used to mount the grinding wheels on adapters directly on the motor with out the belt driven spindle.
K. O. Lee Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1738/17405.pdf

Jim
P.S.
Pictures in the Earlier thread on Joe's Machine

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...e-upstate-ny-381722/?highlight=Cutter+Grinder
P.S.

There are a couple of links with information on Weldon fixtures here.
Weldon Tool Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org
I have seen older models that as far as I can remember had only the air bearing feature but they may have been incomplete but i don't see them listed here.
As shown on the grinder in Post # 1 here
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...-machine-334890/?highlight=Weldon+Air+Bearing

Jim

In the 1980s and perhaps beyond there were some clones of the larger models of K.O.Lee built in Taiwan that were sold under the Chevalier name and perhaps others.
NEW CHEVALIER FCG714 TOOL & CUTTER GRINDER
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/iamachinery/brochures/pdfs/0290.pdf?mtime=20160223171245
Much like some of the Bridgeport clones I don't know that parts would be interchangeable with real K.O. Lee but I would guess the work heads might fit the K.O. Lee Table with perhaps a slight modification of the keeper keys on the base.
I have had a work head from one of those for many years that has served me well .
Some of the parts and accessories for these machines often get separated from their original machine and wind up on on line auction or sales sites as unrecognized bits and pieces for a good price if you know what you are looking at.
I also have had a Chevalier version of the Cutter Master shown farther down in this link since the early 80s as well.
Cutter grinder question,sort of - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS
Jim

I never knew there was a "knock off" of the KO Lee T & C grinder. It looks like some of the parts could interchange, too.

Thanks for sharing! Ken

I have attached pictures of the spindle extensions and the spindle that came with my machine that has the flat belt pulleys
There are 3 for internal grinding and one for mounting regular grinding wheels for up to perhaps 4 or more in. diameter with a bushing for common 1-1/4" bore wheels .
It is held captive in the internal taper of the spindle by a socket head cap screw silver soldered or glued to the threaded end and is free to turn inside the the tapered portion of the adapter wit a few thou of slack between the head and the shoulder of the threaded portion .
I believe this allows the taper stick and then the spindle can be run in reverse with out the adapter coming loose using the locking effect of the taper to drive everything.
The newer machines may have had a similar adapter with the pull thread except with a taper on both ends with the outside end being made to accept the hubs like those made by Sopko similar to those used on surface grinders.
The thread on the internal grinding extensions is one with the part so is intended to turn in one direction .
Jim

Jim:

Thank you for taking the time to lay out the arbors and other parts for your K.O. Lee tool & cutter grinder. Seeing the arbors answers a number of questions I had. Confucius was right on that score !

I have a slightly different and possibly lighter-duty spindle than the one you have. One end of the spindle has the female taper which ends with a 3/8-24 UNF tapping. The one arbor I do have for that end of the spindle has a collet chuck & 1/4" collet. No provision for the socket head screw that you describe, so it would seem this end of the spindle should only be run in one direction. This would be counter clockwise when facing that end of the spindle so it tightens on the 3/8-24 threads on the arbor.

The other end of the spindle has a 5/8" plain arbor with threaded end and keyway. The flat belt pulleys mount on this end.

I will start off slowly with the K.O. Lee tool and cutter grinder, planning on running grinding wheels on the 5/8" arbor end of the spindle with adapters. Wm. Sopko does offer adapters for 5/8" diameter plain arbors for the grinding wheels. I did not see any listings for arbors for the small female taper in the other end of the spindle of my grinder. I suppose at some future point, I will make any arbors I need to lock into the female taper on the spindle. Sopko does have the flat belts for the grinder ( 1 1/4" x 26" is the size stamped on the one belt I got with the grinder). Not having any vee pulleys, I will stick with the flat belt drive for the foreseeable future.

My K.O. Lee grinder did come with a motorized work head with dead center as well as 4 jaw chuck and 5 C collet closer/draw tube. I could make up my own male tapered arbors, harden them, and finish grind them right on my K.O. Lee grinder.

For now, the grinder is in the garage awaiting a good cleaning with mineral spirits before being moved down into the basement shop. I tend to think I have an older K.O. Lee grinder and will find out more when I remove the table for cleaning and lubrication.

Thanks again for your help.

Hi Joe,
The bottom of the pdf on page 114 of this link http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1738/17405.pdf from my earlier post shows the adapter to take the Sopko type hubs with the taper and the locking screw to go into the female taper .
I can't be sure that the one I have is the same as yours but matches the collet chuck that I have
The adapter above on the same page will adapt hubs to the5/8" end on the motor shaft.
I see there are some illustrations on earlier pages on page 24 of the various spindles and their set up with some descriptions before an after.
I think my spindle is the B6055B and you can see an wheel adapter much like mine there too as B855F and like my collet adapter it has a 3/8" -24 thread on it The socket cap screw is welded or held with Locktite into the loose 3/8' 24 end takes a 7/32" Allen key the same as a 5/16"- NC cap screw.
You can send send me a PM or email through the forum email if if I can be of any more help.
P.S.
Attached pictures of a wheel mounted and held in the female taper of the spindle .
The inner cap screw must be a al larger than standard head or shoulder bolt with a smaller thread on it more like 1/4" since the 5/16" thread would be too large to really tap into the 3/8' fine end that is stuck on the end of it.
Regards,
Jim
P.S.
I got wondering if the taper on my adapters and the female taper in my spindle might have been a standard taper like # 1 Morse.
It wasn't # 1 Morse but it looks like it could be a # 5 B&S. or very close to it .
I found I had a #5 Morse to #5 Brown & Sharpe adapter in my collection and it seemed to fit right in .
Not wanting to get out my Prussian Blue I just did a quick try with a felt marker on the adapter with out cleaning and polishing both and it seemed to be very close and felt like it would hold in there .
That gives an idea what the taper is at least on my machine. and an idea of the angle to aim for when turning or grinding shop made tooling .
Jim

That is definitely a short B & S no. 5 taper. I have confirmed that by pretty much the way you determined it with an adapter that had a B & S no. 5 hole in it. Also have a reamer, it's too long to shove down in the bore of the spindle. If anyone wants a copy of it the adapters as above, I have them drawn up in 2D cad. Ken

I noticed a mention about driving the spindle from the female tapered end in the Vintage machinery link I posted, so you could put a wheel on the threaded end for some jobs .
The motor can accept pulleys on either end if the motor shaft for this as well.
They mentioned mounting the pulleys on the adapter so I tried it out with my pulleys and adapter.
All but the smallest used for the highest speeds are recessed on one side so that the outer flange washer and the nut can be put on.
My outer flange washer appears to have been damaged at some point so they pin or small key that fits the key way in the adapter to stop it unscrewing when running in the wrong direction for the thread will need to be fixed on mine.
The hub from my Brown and Sharpe shown in the picture uses a type of double key tabbed washer to do the same thing .
Jim

I run a grinder with a flat belt on the wheel mount diameter.
A pully will work fine but you may need to tickle where the belt runs, may even need to smooth the parting line on such as a V belt.

I have found and scanned a few of the more relevant 19 pages from my K.O.Lee catalogue TG6 dated July 1 1966 still in the flat belt era that has come apart and missing a couple of pages unless they are hiding in my files somewhere.

One thing to note is that the usual taper on the work heads for these machines was # 11 Brown and Sharpe but also available in #5 Morse so something to watch out for when looking for a used one since I would imagine 5 C collet adapters may be more easily available used than those with #11 B.&S.

Another thing to watch out for is that as with many lathes , some adapters with the same taper do not necessarily use the same portion of the taper so the angle may be the same but the adapter may stick out farther than normal or be on the small side and bottom on the shoulder( if it has one ) before engaging the taper.

Jim

More Pages.

Just for comparison ,K.O. Lee made older models that predated the one Joe has in this thread including their A 600 model going back to the 1940s if not earlier if I remember correctly.
There is some discussion about them in this older thread where farther on I posted some pictures of the motor on mine.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...19130/?highlight=K.O.+Lee+A600+cutter+grinder
The Vintage Machinery site has more information on them
Larry Vanice posted some history links in this thread.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...highlight=Restoration+KO+Lee+Knock+Model+A600
I put many hours on my A600 that is now in storage being replaced by other machines but still available to set up for a suitable special job should it be needed .
I bought my B360 with the idea of setting it up for a specific job but I never got it set up and have another machine to do the job for now.
Jim

Hello Jim:

Thanks for the wealth of information about the K.O. Lee tool & cutter grinders. I believe the smaller tapers used in the grinder spindle are 3 inches per foot, known as a 'standard grinding arbor taper'. My K.O. Lee grinder is evidently an older machine as the configuration of the grinder spindle differs slightly from the ones you have described and what K.O. Lee had in their manual (which I found on-line).

The grinder is currently on a dolly out in my garage, awaiting cleaning prior to being brought down into my basement shop. When I get to it, I will be able to read the nameplate data as to model & serial number.The color of the grinder (factory paint) is a silver-gray. I do not know if K.O. Lee changed their 'stock' paint color from the silver-gray to a blue paint at some later point, if this is any indication of approximate age of the grinder.

For now, I am racing to beat the onset of winter weather on a couple of outside projects. Once I am driven indoors by old man winter, I will get on with the grinder cleanup and setup. I suspect that owning a tool and cutter grinder is much like owning any other machine tool: it's all about the tooling, and a person never seems to have quite enough tooling. Getting setup to regrind endmill cutters is my primary objective, but it's a case of walking before I can run in terms of setting up the grinder and getting arbors and basic tooling squared away. Thank you again for taking the time to post the K.O. Lee catalog cuts and pictures of your own tool and cutter grinder tooling.

Joe,

Good luck with this machine. Hopefully it'll do what you need it to do.

Mark

Joe Michaels said:

I suspect that owning a tool and cutter grinder is much like owning any other machine tool: it's all about the tooling, and a person never seems to have quite enough tooling.

Click to expand...

Ha ha isn't that the truth...

I've got a Tos copy of a Cincy No 2 with a 3MT work head - takes a 3MT taper shank with a M12 thread on the end. I got exactly one when I bought the machine and its hub size was fairly useless. I set up the TA on the Monarch and made a bunch to take cup wheels, cylindrical wheels etc etc. Now I can swap from one to another fast. Even sharpened some end mills on it but there's a big bunch of blunt ones still waiting. I use a 5MT ER40 collet chuck to hold the cutters.

PDW

I found the MT3 extensions of various lengths on my Tos very handy too and had some more made by a friend with a cylindrical grinder but could still use some more hubs that I never got around to make .
I don't know that all Tos Models are the same either.
Just pop the extension wheel and all ,out and in with another one .
I should have made a couple of 3 MT extensions to take the hubs from my Brown and Sharpe and Cincinnati grinders so I could share wheels between machines more easily but I will get by with what I have for now
I don't have pictures handy to post right now.

Jim