Keyway Cutting on Alba 1A Shaper Question
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  1. #1
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    Default Keyway Cutting on Alba 1A Shaper Question

    Hi guys, I bought a nice Alba 1A Shaper a few month ago. It's in good condition and a very nice machine to work with.

    Video of my Alba 1A Shaper:

    YouTube

    I needed to cut a keyway and made a cutting tool for this.

    Video of the tool:

    YouTube

    I had some trouble getting enough pressure on the tool but I don't exactly understand why. Maybe you guys have any idea?

    I used the tool in the clapper box. The tool was ground to 2 degree of clearance (side and front) and 10 degree on the cutting angle. I didn't cut until I gave it some down pressure with a bicycle inner tube. With that it worked great.

    I know there are many people using a fixed tool holder and not the clapper box. But the manual showed a keyway cutting tool that was mounted in the clapper box. Was my tool to long? Do I need to have a fixed mounting? Why? Someone suggested grinding 4-degree angle on the front of the cutter to pull it more down. Where my tool angels not correct?

    Looking forward to hear some suggestions.

    Greetings from the Netherlands, Bart

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    Some pictures of the tool:

    20191026_142520.jpgimg_20191026_154815_061.jpg
    Last edited by Harkema; 12-23-2019 at 02:55 PM.

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    Sorry but i'm new to this forum. I tried to find how to post photo's but could not find it. If you have any suggestions then please let me know.

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    Start a new post or edit the original (the edit window and its button are available for 24 hours)

    Either way, find and hit the Go Advanced feature

    Scroll down to Manage Attachments and follow thru on uploading jpg files from wherever you have them

    Makes Thumbnails you can click to enlarge, such as the example below

    Works on my old personal computer - do not know about more modern "devices"
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1905-ph-cover-off.jpg  

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    Thanks, I believe I found it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harkema View Post
    Thanks, I believe I found it!
    Your pictures look very fine to me. Yes,the clapper works with tools closer to the ram. I had the same problem and maybe somebody else has the answer. Once the tool starts digging, its okay and we don't want it totally fixed at backstroke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alum100k View Post
    Your pictures look very fine to me. Yes,the clapper works with tools closer to the ram. I had the same problem and maybe somebody else has the answer. Once the tool starts digging, its okay and we don't want it totally fixed at backstroke.
    I may try that idea myself with my 14" Steptoe.. I machined a holder which replaces the clapper completely making my tool rigid...I have used it this way and it works great but your idea affords some lift on the return stroke. Great idea and great pictures! Merry Christmas everyone. Ramsay 1

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    A long time ago when i was doing my trade we had a invicta shaper i think it was a 18 inch one.

    We locked the clapper box up so it would not work, it cut fine even though it was dragging on the backstroke.

    rarely did we use the clapper box as its meant to be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street View Post
    A long time ago when i was doing my trade we had a invicta shaper i think it was a 18 inch one.

    We locked the clapper box up so it would not work, it cut fine even though it was dragging on the backstroke.

    rarely did we use the clapper box as its meant to be used.
    Well put, Mr. Street. So far, it is applying pressure at the forward stroke and slight relief at back stroke. Even this, required the tool bit ground proper.

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    I just popped back to wish "Merry Christmas" to Ramsay 1. He wished us that first. It takes power to do that amidst all the lead up to actual Christmas Day. A special time for sure.

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    For internal keyways it is safer to lock the clapper and just have the tool drag on the back stroke. Can't easily use carbide though. For larger keyways use a smaller tool and then step left and right to get your keyway to the proper width. If your tool is too wide it takes a lot of cutting pressure and you will most likely get chatter and not cut well.

    My name is Brian and I'm a toolaholic.

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    Sterling advice to where more narrow cutters pave the ways. Internal splines are another matter and less rigid. It is all good. Thanks much for the pics.

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    Here is a link to my Instagram of the last spline job I had to do. @carlquib on Instagram: “Making some splined bushings on the shaper today.”
    I thought I had the pictures on my phone but couldn't find them.

    Quote Originally Posted by alum100k View Post
    Internal splines are another matter and less rigid. It is all good. Thanks much for the pics.
    pictures

    My name is Brian and I'm a toolaholic.

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    Another good point that can be taken from Brian's pictures is that, cutting upside-down an internal keyway is equivalent to locking the clapper box without having to do so physically.
    Given that the tool holder is rather long, it has enough spring not to require lifting the tool on the back stroke.

    Paolo

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    Thanks everyone for the information. I can understand that it is a bit safer to fix the clapper box on small holes. But beside safety, I still find it difficult to understand why I had the trouble with the down force. Maybe my toolholder was a little to long and flexible. But when I cut it with a very light pressure downward with the bicycle inner tube near the clapper box it cut great. I don't believe that it would change that much when it was only a flexibility problem.

    Maybe the tool needs to be more underneath the clapper box so the tool pressure put more force on the clapper box to lock it. But then, I don't understand why the manual shows almost the same tool as I made... And changing the cutting angle to be more aggressive would change pressure depending on the depth of cut. I want to be able to cut the finishing cut with light pressure. I guess it's a combination of flexibility and position of the tool. I will try different settings in the future.

    screenshot-2019-10-26-16.58.09.jpgscreenshot_20191226-160454_video-player.jpgscreenshot_20191226-160536_video-player.jpg

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    Locking the clapper down prevents the clapper from lifting too far and having the bar bar bind catastrophically in the bore. Usually the flex in the bar is sufficient so there isn't significant cutting edge degradation on the back stroke and on a keyway there isn't a significant amount of material that needs to be cut. I think what was happening when you had no additional down force on your tool was the clapper would lift a little as the tool entered the cut and then with the length of your tool there wasn't sufficient friction to create the tool pressure to initiate the cut. With the additional pressure from the tube the tool would start and then keep cutting. If you turn the tool over and cut at the top of the bore it eliminates the tendency for the clapper to lift as it enters the cut. I prefer the locked clapper approach, it is safer and easier for one off keyways, especially if cutting at the top of the bore.

    My name is Brian and I'm a toolaholic.

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    Thanks Brian for the Explanation. Cutting upside down would be a good solution that I will try but I think I'm going to make a fixed tool holder in the future. I like to see what the cutting is doing and its a little easier to measure when the keyway is on the bottum side.

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    Can't argue with that result. Nice pulley you made.
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotarySMP View Post
    Can't argue with that result. Nice pulley you made.
    Mark
    Thanks, And with a little down pressure it worked great. 1045 steel, 8 mm keyway with 6 mm cutting tool and sidestep. The pulley was for my homemade 2x72 belt grinder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotarySMP View Post
    Can't argue with that result. Nice pulley you made.
    Mark
    Certainly nice. There is more flex in the vise jaws, cutting upward. There is the "foot" suspending the knee. Unlike shaping traverse, the foot would need constant adjustment cutting up or down. Mine isn't as good as Bart's Alba, so I have to consider this.


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