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  1. #21
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    I pulled the ball bearing behind the input shaft pulley. It fits snug in the housing but the inner race is free to slip on the input shaft. That can’t be right? There are two more bearings on the input shaft ... another ball bearing in the center and a roller bearing (?) at the other end. The center bearing shows about .0015” radial play at the shaft. Both its races are snug fits so all play is coming from the ball bearings. Replacing this bearing requires pulling out the input shaft, but the roller on the right side will not clear the bull gear on the spindle, and that roller seems to be a press fit to the shaft with no obvious way to press it off. So ... do I need to pull the whole spindle just to swap out bearings on the input shaft? Anyone know the tricks to pulling something like this apart?

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    Sorry about the double post. I thought I managed to delete one of them

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    Unless that bearing is making noise or shows wear as in sloppy balls in the races, leave it alone. It is common to see loose fits of .001-.002", bearing OD's to the housing bores on these lathes. The main spindle bearings are the only ones that will have interference fit, not the tail end bearing. That one was designed to float in the housing. Unless the input shaft has more than .010" up and down play in the bearings/housing, I would leave it alone. I've seen some pretty sloppy worn bearings I was told to leave alone and I guess if those machines are still running, are probably still on the same bearings. If your just wanting the exercise to tearing down to see how all of it works, don't touch it. If you haven't already done so, get you a mechanics stethoscope to help you pin point bearing issues, if they are any.
    Step back and think for a bit on the issues that you are trying to resolve. The noise you originally talking about, chirping sound, I believe it was. The only thing that comes to mind that comes even close is a vee belt making this kind of noise. Is the oil pump in the head stock running the correct direction? Is the brake bands, disks, making this noise? A chirping noise is not generally associated to a bearing. Something may be rubbing causing this noise.

    Keep up the search, you'll eventually find the issue.

    Ken

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  5. #24
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    I might not be describing the noise quite right. It’s that same “spalling” noise that a loose nut can make when you spin it on a bolt. This machine has no oil pump or brake, it’s pretty basic. The center bearing on the input shaft is the only one I see that shows any wear (play) in the ball bearings. That bearing is the closest to the gears used for running at high speeds, when I hear that noise. Unfortunately, it’s the biggest pain to replace. Also, that region of the headstock seems to vibrate the most when this is going on .... you can feel it with your bare hands. Hard to get a stethoscope or screwdriver in close to the bearings when it’s running, I need to put the lid back on or oil flies everywhere

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    I should also mention that there’s a very fine black sludge in the oil distribution tray above the gears. Not sure if that’s from normal gear wear & tear or indicative of a failing bearing

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    Next time you take your car in for an oil change tell the people you want to leave some sludge in the pan. It seems like were offering advice and your just doing your own thing and guessing. I had assumed you had drained the oil in the headstock and filled it with new recommended oil before doing anything and writing here. If you drain all the oil and then with visually inspect everything.

    Another thing you could do after the oil is drained. spray down all the with some brake cleaner and then examine all the gears and shafting for shinny spots. Before draining the oils run the machine through the gear speeds and listen for noise. I would also think you could do this investigation when the oil is out. The point I was making on dry headstock is to spray the gear teeth with Dykem layout fluid and run it say for 2 or 3 minutes dry and then look for gear teeth that could be bent a little. Many times one tooth in a gear is damaged and by doing the Dykem trick you can find it. Most times the noise in in one set of gears, so going through the speeds you can isolate the area. Please be careful with this, gears running with-out guarding could kill you or you could lose a finger. You may be best served by running it as is if you can't find a big issue.

    Does the compound have a big notch out of it as if some former owner may have crashed it and bent a tooth. Also I think your expecting no noise on an old used machine. How old did you say it was? I would never assemble any gearbox with slop in bearing fits and 001" to me is to much for my liking even if you want it to "float". To me all should be a light press or .0002". Those old straight spur gears were noisy. If you have inspected everything in and out of the headstock and it runs with noise, you can pull all the shafts including the spindle and replace the bearings.

    Timken's should be replaced with 0 or 00 class. Timkem uses zero's for precision bearings and the higher the number is worse. 000 is best and those are usually made to order and not off the shelf. As Ken says...clean inspect and run it. A lot of photo's would be nice too. You may go to the Lodge and Shipley or old iron lathe forum and ask in there if other owners have noisy headstocks.
    Last edited by Richard King; 04-15-2019 at 12:16 PM.

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  9. #27
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    Richard, I believe it's a 1965 machine. Not a lot of visible wear. No notches in the compound. I drained the oil and cleaned all the innards over the weekend. All the gear tooth wear patterns look even, but I'll try that Dykem layout spray you mentioned and check again. I was afraid to run it without oil, but you reckon it's ok for a short time, perhaps if I put a little oil on each bearing?
    So far I've discovered one bearing (left end of spindle) that floats in the housing with several thou clearance (and I'm hearing that the solution to this is shims), and the bearing near the pulley on the input shaft that floats on the shaft (haven't measured the clearance yet).
    Been making a few pullers in case I need to yank that input shaft out.

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    Gears all look good. So, moved on and pulled the input shaft. Inspected the bearings and found spalling(?) in the center bearing. There's my noise! Not sure why a ball bearing was used there and not a roller bearing. Ditto for the ball bearing near the pulley.

    Sorry I couldn't zoom in a little closer on the bearing, the spalling on the races shows as a dark edge ...

    center_bearing_spalling.jpg

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    Pic of the disassembled input shaft. Not sure why it didn't upload wit the previous post ...

    input_shaft.jpg

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    Glad you seem to have found the noise source. For a while it looked like you might be chasing your tail. I own a 1408 I have not yet run ("eyes bigger than stomach/space"), so this has been very interesting reading.

    Now on the spalling - what is the root cause and what action should be taken to prevent it in the future? And why on the center bearing? Is this a lubrication issue? Loading? Bearing fault? Is there PM shimming that should be done to prevent vibration related wear in this headstock?

    Looking at my photos of my headstock internals, that bearing does not have a lubrication feed from the lube distribution tray on the top of the headstock. Seems like it would get splash, being so open where it is.

    Any extra detail, tips, techniques and photos you can include in this thread will help others in the years to come - probably quite a lot (I hope I'm not one of them). Especially things like those curiously large clearances you found.

    It would be nice to find a service manual or prints for this lathe. Do you have the operators and repair parts manual? It has some exploded view drawings, not sure if the headstock is included. I don't have a copy but see it on ebay.

    The photos don't show it in this thread, but you must be incredibly thankful for how spacious that headstock is. There is a huge amount of room to work and inspect. That bearing could probably be visually inspected in place.

    Edit: You can never take too many photos of a machine, every angle, every view, because they can be so useful in the future. These are from the photos I took of the headstock, after I got the machine.

    Oil is carried up by the bull gear, where fingers near the face divert it into the distribution tray. The 3 speed gear selector shaft can be seen running top to bottom. The problem input shaft bearing is in the center web at the bottom, with no direct oil feed. Does it get enough lube? How about the other input shaft bearings?








    That's the bearing. You could hide some brewskis in that headstock.



    Tags: lodge & shipley 1408 avs gearbox headstock

  15. #31
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    Glug,
    >> what is the root cause and what action should be taken to prevent it in the future?

    Good question. Any unusual play in the pulley bearing would put an additional load on the center bearing (just imagine the cantilever load on the center bearing if you completely removed the pulley bearing), and my pulley bearing does show a slip-fit to the shaft. I suspect that's a consequence of wear. I'll pull the shields on the pulley bearing and see if it shows spalling too. So .... what caused all this? Can't tell. Run too fast for too long, run out of oil once upon a time, improper bearing installation ... any number of things. I can say this, though ... putting this thing back together properly is going to be a real trick. Bearings are press fits with both shaft and the housing, so it's something of a Chinese puzzle to insure that pressure is applied only to the correct races of each bearing at any time. Violating this principle might damage a bearing. All the bearings on this shaft are ball bearings, and I have to wonder why the pulley bearing was not a roller type considering that it's under a constant radial load from the motor belts.

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    Oh, yes I do have the manual. Exploded views of everything. And yes, that roomy headstock is a real blessing.
    Getting the input shaft out isn't straightforward. The spindle bull gear is in the way. You could pull the spindle and it would solve that problem, but I was trying to leave the spindle alone. So ... this meant the small double row BB on the right end of the shaft had to exit via the right side of the headstock. And to do that required pulling the big oil plug visible from the outside. Beware that this oil plug is held in place by a set screw inside the headstock. At this point you could reach in with a soft drift and punch out the BB, but there's a circlip holding it in place at the very end of the shaft. Well, damn! And to get that circlip off, you need to reach way up inside that hole that the oil plug covered. I've never seen any circlip pliers long and skinny enough to reach into a hole that deep, so the next step was to press the whole input shaft to the right and move that BB over until normal circlip pliers could reach it. This is where attention must be paid to the position of the gears .... it would be real easy to accidentally bend a few gears if they weren't lined up properly and you just started pressing on the shaft. Note that as the shaft moves to the right, the center bearing also moves out of its housing. Now is the time to remove the circlip holding the double row BB and the circlip holding the center bearing. Ok, the double row BB is still pressed onto the shaft and needs to be carefully tapped off. I moved the whole shaft partially back into position to do this. Then the center bearing can be pressed off the shaft with a pipe drift fed in through the left side of the headstock (assuming the pulley bearing is removed), using the pulley nut to press. Put something under the shaft to catch it when it drops .... don't let it crash onto the housing bores. Not too tricky to work on, but it does take a little thought to avoid doing damage

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    Quote Originally Posted by borne2fly View Post
    I'll pull the shields on the pulley bearing and see if it shows spalling too.
    Wonder what the grease looks like, and the front bearing.

    Btw, did you notice the difference between our bearings? Funny, I didn't notice it when looking at the photos - it struck me hours later.

    So .... what caused all this? Can't tell. Run too fast for too long, run out of oil once upon a time, improper bearing installation ... any number of things.
    Have you seen any witness marks to indicate whether anyone has done work in there before? I would think there would be some evidence of no oil - burnt oil remnants, discoloration, other failed bearings. Your one headstock pic was small and kinda dark, so it was hard to see much. My lathe is a '69.

    I can say this, though ... putting this thing back together properly is going to be a real trick.
    That's where it would be a big help to everyone else if you can give us some tips. I'm not even sure how you managed to get it out. You were talking about needing to pull the spindle, but apparently found an alternative? Have you asked Monarch for tips, or about the clearances?

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    Update ..... got it all back together and still makes some noise but not the screeching I heard before at full speed. At this point I'd say it's normal spur gear noise. Time to start putting my new toy to work

    The center bearing on the input shaft was shot, and causing the original noise. I'll guess it was also responsible for the black color of the old oil? The other bearings didn't seem too bad. The new bearings were a very light press fit onto the shaft, and the two big ball bearings were a slip-fit into the housing with only moderate hand pressure. Only the double-row end bearing was a light press to both the shaft and housing. I replaced the center bearing with the original style deep groove ball bearing, but also bought a same-size roller bearing that drops right in if this ever happens again.
    Only tricky part was installing the double row bearing on the right side ..... it had to go into the housing from the right side because the big bull gear blocks it from the other direction. And there's a circlip at the very end of the shaft to keep the bearing in place, and all this sits deep inside a bore with no easy access. In other words, after you've got all the bearings installed and it's all back together, you still have to somehow get this circlip onto the end of the input shaft, and there's no way to reach in there with circlip pliers to do this. I had to make a shaft of similar diameter, butt it up against the input shaft, and blindly slide the circlip from one shaft onto the other. This required a piece of pipe acting as a sort of slide hammer to push the circlip from one shaft onto the other, because this all happens inside a bore where you can't work with your fingers or even see what's going on. But it worked, and she's up & running again.

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    Running it in a bit since I fit a few new bearings. Main spindle bearings are still the originals (I think). Temp at the headstock near the main timkens settled at 102 deg Farenheit after an hour at 2000rpm (full speed). Still howls like a rock crusher especially in top gear. Finish cuts in mild steel are glass smooth. Seems to be a fair bit of "stiction" at rest .... meaning, when the spindle is in neutral I cannot always spin it with only one or two fingers. Is all this normal for an old L&S?

    By comparison, the 13" LeBlond is much quieter at similar speeds (up to 500rpm, top speed on this old roundhead regal), headstock temperature shows around 80 degrees F (again, top speed is only 500rpm), spins freely with one finger in neutral. Also produces a nice smooth finish in the same steel sample as used in the L&S.

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    Odd I read about noise from a Model X L&S. I have a 14", 24 spindle speed that will easily swing 16". The model that has hard replaceable ways and run in oil clutches. Crazy clutch handle that can shift spindle direction forward and reverse without changing motor direction. It's very quite! Virtually no noise from the quick change thread gear box that's completely sealed and no openings. Loudest is the motor that is not very loud and same as most 1750 RPM motor make.

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    Update ...
    The headstock only really howls in top gear. So I moved the shifter into top gear, then very slightly out of position, and everything got much quieter. Popped the lid off the headstock to see exactly how the gears were meshed in this position .... about 70% engaged. Apparently the noise is coming from the mesh of the gears. The shifter has no adjustment, and there is a little play in it that means the gears will mesh a little differently each time they're engaged. But even so, as long as the shifter lever sits squarely in its detent, the gears are meshed almost 100% (and noisy). One more thing .... it gets a little quieter when the oil warms up (I'm using the recommended DTE oil), so I'm wondering if I should use a thinner oil?
    Conclusion .... it's normal for this machine to howl in top gear.

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    As I mentioned I don't have the same model but mine does not howl. Runs quiet in every speed range and because of the totally enclosed threading change gears it too is very very quite! I have the parts and owners manual for my Model X, not sure how much is the same but I can check to see if there is a shifter adjustment. My Hendey thread gear box started to howl when moved from #1 range to #2. I found the shifter was not correct one gear was rubbing another.

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    I think my headstock is a bit different design. But here’s a question .... can the spindle bearings be bad and still this machine produces a glass smooth cut? I’m sort of assuming the bearings are good based on a smooth cutting finish and the fact that the noise is much quieter when I run it in reverse. Any thoughts on this?

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    Oh ... one more thing ... the spindle housing just behind the chuck settles at around 100 degrees after running in top gear for a few hours. Is that normal for a machine over 50 years old? Seems like things would have loosened up a bit over time? There’s also a fair bit of stiction when I roll it over by hand and I wonder if someone “re-adjusted” the spindle preload ....


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