Leblond 13" regal roundhead: how to unstick the apron lube

Hi, All,

thanks in advance. New to me lathe. I did enough searching to learn that I am not alone but not enough to decide how to remedy.

The apron has a little pushbutton pump to move lubricant out of the sump. It appears to be stuck in the 'in' position. I dont want to run the lathe much without getting this resolved.

Any tips on freeing it? Tips on what to NOT do?

thanks!

Bill

I own a 13" LeBlond Roundhead Regal lathe. As has happened on your lathe, the oil pump plunger on the apron stuck on my lathe. My lathe had sat un-used/untouched for over 12 years. I filled the apron with diesel fuel and Marvel Mystery Oil (don't laugh, it's got a gum cutter in it). I tapped on the end of the plunger (which has a hemispherical indent for your fingertips to push on it). This only got the plunger deeper in, still sticking. I tapped on the plunger with a brass drift, and it suddenly popped back out, and works freely ever since. I flushed the apron with diesel fuel and Marvel Mystery Oil, and got some diluted sludge out the drain plug. A couple of fillings and flushings did the trick. I worked the plunger until I was getting diesel and MMO out the carriage wings and every other place that the oil drillings in the apron lead to. Freeing the plunger is one piece of the pie, but you need to make sure the oil drillings- which supply oil to the cross slide as well as the carriage wings- are all clear and oil is flowing from them when you work the plunger.

If you find the plunger does not free up with the diesel fuel/MMO, you can drill a small hole (like a # 21 drill) in the center of the plunger rod (in that hemispherical "fingertip" pusher location). Tap the hole 10-32, and make yourself a simple slide hammer (10-31 socket head screw, piece of 1/2" round stock, slide weight made from anything handy- braze the 10-32 screw head to the end of the 1/2" rod, weld a slug of steel to the other end of the rod, drill a chunk of steel for the slide hammer). I've used the little slide hammer trick to free similar parts.

Thank you! Will let you know!

Joe Michaels said:

I own a 13" LeBlond Roundhead Regal lathe. As has happened on your lathe, the oil pump plunger on the apron stuck on my lathe. My lathe had sat un-used/untouched for over 12 years. I filled the apron with diesel fuel and Marvel Mystery Oil (don't laugh, it's got a gum cutter in it). I tapped on the end of the plunger (which has a hemispherical indent for your fingertips to push on it). This only got the plunger deeper in, still sticking. I tapped on the plunger with a brass drift, and it suddenly popped back out, and works freely ever since. I flushed the apron with diesel fuel and Marvel Mystery Oil, and got some diluted sludge out the drain plug. A couple of fillings and flushings did the trick. I worked the plunger until I was getting diesel and MMO out the carriage wings and every other place that the oil drillings in the apron lead to. Freeing the plunger is one piece of the pie, but you need to make sure the oil drillings- which supply oil to the cross slide as well as the carriage wings- are all clear and oil is flowing from them when you work the plunger.

If you find the plunger does not free up with the diesel fuel/MMO, you can drill a small hole (like a # 21 drill) in the center of the plunger rod (in that hemispherical "fingertip" pusher location). Tap the hole 10-32, and make yourself a simple slide hammer (10-31 socket head screw, piece of 1/2" round stock, slide weight made from anything handy- braze the 10-32 screw head to the end of the 1/2" rod, weld a slug of steel to the other end of the rod, drill a chunk of steel for the slide hammer). I've used the little slide hammer trick to free similar parts.

Click to expand...

The oil passages lead many other places as well, most of them more susceptible to being plugged than the plunger. I would recommend NOT doing the above bc you'll just push the gunk into places that are harder to clean.

If you split the saddle from the apron (it's only a few bolts) you'll gain access to the whole oil channel where you can pump the pump without forcing gunk into other places. You can also inspect and replace the felts if needed. The only real risk to this is your gasket may need replaced. Also be careful not to lose the check-ball in the main oil passage coming from the pump.

Hi, thank you

I was thinking I was going to need to split saddle from apron. As of now, the plunger moves very freely and I think passages are open as I hear it 'breathing' at the vee way and the flat way. No oil comes out. I conclude that the check ball is stuck.

When I split, I am thinking
- remove compound
- remove keepers that connect saddle to ways
- block up apron so it doesnt sag down on the screws when saddle is unbolted
- remove 4 allen screws that secure saddle to apron
- lift saddle off

my main concern of all is that in so doing I will discover something else Ill be tempted to fix that really should be left alone.

Can you tell me more about replacing the felts? Im sure its obviosu to y'all but Im a newbie.

thank you!

Bill

I highly recommend you buy a copy of "Running the Regal". It is THE manual for the roundhead LeBlond Regal lathes. reprints are available on ebay for around 20 dollats. It is money well spent as there are exploded views and parts diagrams for all sizes of the roundhead Regal lathes.

There are no step-by-step instructions in that manual for doing any maintainence on those lathes beyond adjusting gibs and spindle bearings. If you do not get into the "what if" mode and decide to take more apart than is needed, you will be fine. The felts take the form of "wipers" mounted on the ends of the carriage wings. There are small castings with "inverted vees" which hold the felt wipers captive. There are similar felts on the tailstock base. I bought a roll of 1/8" thick x 1" wide stiff white felt from McMaster and cut new felts from it.

I believe there may be felts used in grooves to make a seal between the carriage and the saddle. The fit between the carriage and the saddle is made by hand-scraped surfaces and no other gasketing or sealant is used. When you go to reassemble the carriage to the saddle, it is a good idea to "kiss" the mating surfaces off with a very fine oil stone. I use a small "Arkansas Hard" stone with some light oil for this sort of work. Stoning does not take off enough metal to be measurable by common means and will take down any small burrs raised when you took things apart or by the last guy who was in there before you.

Coat the mating surfaces with some of the oil you'd use in the headstock (DTE Light, or ISO 46) and put things back together after stoning the mating surfaces.

What you call the "Keepers" that connect the saddle to the ways are known as "gibs". These are fitted in each of the 4 locations, so do not mix them up. LeBlond instructions call for scraping a little off the gibs if the fit loosens up with wear on the bedways and carriage wings.


In taking things apart to separate the apron from the saddle there should be dowel pins. Dowels can offer some resistance when you go to take things apart, so the apron and saddle may not just separate once the capscrews are out. Do NOT get frisky with a pry bar if you encounter resistance in separating the apron from the saddle.
When you are separating the apron from the saddle:
-remove the lead screw and feed rod if you plan on taking the apron off the lathe to work on the pump. Word to the wise here: check the LeBlond manual as you
may be able to access the oil pump without taking too much apart.

-loosen the (4) socket head capscrews and try to separate the apron with the (4) screws limiting how far things can drop or move. Try to plan you work so nothing
can "take off" or drop suddenly and get away from you. I leave things like those capscrews in place but backed out enough to allow me to "break the fit" without
risk of things falling or getting away and possibly doing damage or hurting me.

As for the felts, you cut the felt with a "single edge razor blade" or a sharp drywall or box cutting knife.

Before you get into dismantling the apron from the saddle, I'd suggest you fill the apron with some kerosene and maybe some Marvel Mystery Oil and start pumping the oil pump plunger. The "breathing sound" you are hearing may be the pump sucking air or "spitting" on what little oil is in the apron. It takes a pretty fair amount of oil in the apron to flood the pump bottom so it will "pick up". There is a "Gits" type of oil hole cover (fancy name for spring loaded lid) on the RH side of the apron where you top up the oil in the apron. In order for the pump to pick up and deliver oil to the carriage wings, you need to see oil at least in the bottom of that Gits cup. LeBlond left a kind of "sump" in the apron below the pump suction, and you can pour what seems like a lot of oil into the apron and not bring the level up to the suction of the plunger pump. I wind up sticking a funnel with a flexible spout into that Gits cup and pouring in ISO 46 oil when the pump starts making the "slurping" or breathing sound. This is my clue that the oil level is low in the apron. If you have the pump plunger moving freely and springing back up, I kind of doubt the check ball is stuck. There is a drain plug at the bottom of the apron, so you can flush the apron and satisfy yourself you are not pumping sludge up to the carriage wings and cross slide. I tend to try to go for the easiest approach first and not make more trouble than I already have.

Mr. Michaels that is excellent advice. I do have 'running a regal' and I have read it though I suppose my question might suggest otherwise LOL.

Regarding the sump. I unbolted one allen bolt from saddle to apron and filled the sump from there until it ran clear out the the Gits cup. I tried to sift the drain plug but had no love. Ill try again. I agree that simple is best. I will flush and retry.

BTW I have heard that the roundhead regals had hardened ways, and mine are pretty nice feeling, however other areas on the bed seem to have been flaked and have long since worn through the flaking. When I am comfortable that everything is nice and lubed I'll turn a steel or aluminum rod and see where I sit for nonlinearity.

thank you very much for the help.

Joe, I'm not trying to make this personal but have you ever torn one of these apart? I read some parts of your post that seem intelligent and speaking from experience and then others that make me question if you've even seen one torn apart, much less done one yourself.

Joe Michaels said:

The felts take the form of "wipers" mounted on the ends of the carriage wings.

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That's not the felt I was referencing.

Joe Michaels said:

I believe there may be felts used in grooves to make a seal between the carriage and the saddle.

Click to expand...

NO NO NO NO NO... that groove is NOT for a felt to be placed in, that is an oil passage. Inside that groove there will be several holes drilled to various moving parts of the apron. On the mating part of the saddle there are hole drilled that are open to the groove, the oil is pressed up out of that groove into those lube holes to lube the cross slide screw journal and a larger hole the leads into the saddle way lube passage. All of my rotating shafts in the apron have lube passages from that groove to the journal/bearing as well as tiny copper lubrication lines from that groove directed to the small reservoir on top of the half-nuts. DO NOT put felt in that groove, it will block lubrication to those parts. Rather, the holes drilled in the bottom of that groove should have felts (1/4" diamter round) placed in the bottom to keep the lube from completely draining out of the groove (it acts more like a slow drip of lube to the shafting in the apron.

Joe Michaels said:

Coat the mating surfaces with some of the oil you'd use in the headstock (DTE Light, or ISO 46) and put things back together after stoning the mating surfaces.

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They may have precision fit early aprons but later aprons were gasketed from what I know. If OPs has a gasket when he takes it apart I recommend he use a gasket when he puts it back together.

Joe Michaels said:

In taking things apart to separate the apron from the saddle there should be dowel pins. Dowels can offer some resistance when you go to take things apart, so the apron and saddle may not just separate once the capscrews are out. Do NOT get frisky with a pry bar if you encounter resistance in separating the apron from the saddle.

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The being careful part is not bad advice, but my late-model (just before the switch to square-heads) does NOT have dowel pines of any sort in the apron/saddle so don't be alarmed if they aren't there.

Joe Michaels said:

Before you get into dismantling the apron from the saddle, I'd suggest you fill the apron with some kerosene and maybe some Marvel Mystery Oil and start pumping the oil pump plunger.

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Joe, this is bad advice, STOP giving it.

As I stated, the groove in the apron leads to passages that go to shafting in the apron. Once the gunk is pumped through and gets in those passages you won't get it back without a 100% teardown of the apron. If the plunger is gunked up enough to be sticking it has enough gunk to plug up oil passages or worse. Best case scenario, if you pump the plunger to flush kerosene through the system is that the felts are in great shape, they filter out the gunk that WOULD have gone to the apron parts, instead sending it all to the saddle parts (that way you only have to tear the saddle apart to clean it out). There is nothing good that can be accomplished by breaking up the gunk in the apron and pumping it into oil passages unless you're just looking for a "hack" to get the lathe in service with no regard for longevity of the parts.

Joe Michaels said:

I wind up sticking a funnel with a flexible spout into that Gits cup and pouring in ISO 46 oil when the pump starts making the "slurping" or breathing sound. This is my clue that the oil level is low in the apron.

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Wouldn't the oil level in the gits oil cup be a better indicator? That's where the oil level is supposed to be, don't wait until you hear sucking of air, by that point the oil level has dropped low enough that the oil lubricated gearing is not in as much oil as it is designed for.

Joe Michaels said:

There is a drain plug at the bottom of the apron, so you can flush the apron and satisfy yourself you are not pumping sludge up to the carriage wings and cross slide. I tend to try to go for the easiest approach first and not make more trouble than I already have.

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The carriage wings and cross slide are not the only place the oil goes.
Also, that drain plug in the apron is located directly across from the plunger, pull the drain plug out and the plunger and spring should push out the back side of the apron.

wfissell said:

BTW I have heard that the roundhead regals had hardened ways, and mine are pretty nice feeling, however other areas on the bed seem to have been flaked and have long since worn through the flaking. When I am comfortable that everything is nice and lubed I'll turn a steel or aluminum rod and see where I sit for nonlinearity.

Click to expand...

Late model round-heads had hardened ways for the carriage (cast iron for the tailstock), early models were cast iron for both carriage & tailstock. The tell-tale sign: If you have inverted vee ways for your carriage they're cast iron. If you have flat ways for the carriage (the front one is angled ~20 degrees) you have hardened steel.

thank you to all

Late model round-heads had hardened ways for the carriage (cast iron for the tailstock), early models were cast iron for both carriage & tailstock. The tell-tale sign: If you have inverted vee ways for your carriage they're cast iron. If you have flat ways for the carriage (the front one is angled ~20 degrees) you have hardened steel.[/QUOTE]

Mine look exactly like the ones in

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2102/6810.pdf

so I guess cast iron. If so, thats some mighty fine cast iron.

If its reassuring... I think the plunger was stuck because there was paint on the last few mm of it and the prior owner wedged it in there. As soon as I moved it just a hair back by grabbing it with a channel lock pliers it popped right up.

That said I still have the 'breathing' problem. that is: when I depress the plunger, I can hear air and gurgling at the front (vee) and back (flat) ways. They arent plugged I dont think; its just that the oiler isnt moving oil there.


I can tear it down but I aint eager.

I appreciate all the help and the spectrum of opinions discussed.

wfissell said:

Mine look exactly like the ones in

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2102/6810.pdf

so I guess cast iron. If so, thats some mighty fine cast iron.

If its reassuring... I think the plunger was stuck because there was paint on the last few mm of it and the prior owner wedged it in there. As soon as I moved it just a hair back by grabbing it with a channel lock pliers it popped right up.

That said I still have the 'breathing' problem. that is: when I depress the plunger, I can hear air and gurgling at the front (vee) and back (flat) ways. They arent plugged I dont think; its just that the oiler isnt moving oil there.


I can tear it down but I aint eager.

I appreciate all the help and the spectrum of opinions discussed.

Click to expand...

If that's your style then yeah you have cast iron ways but it's not a huge deal as long as your lathe isn't clapped out. IMHO, the only real advantage to the hardened steel ways is less dings where careless people dropped things on them, and when a lathe is worn heavily the ways see very little wear (see my further comments below).

It may take a while to get oil up there. There is a check-ball inserted in the main oil passage coming up from the pump. If that check ball is stuck, or is missing the pump will not work, it will just "gurgle" like you've described. If somebody split them apart before and didn't realize there was a check-ball there (many don't) and lost it, then put it back together the oiler likely hasn't worked in years. That's a bit concerning. My lathe, when it came to me had severe wear on some of the apron shafting because of lack of lube (they just never lubed it). I tore it down, sleeved the bad journals with new bronze bushings and put it all back together with new felts in the oil passages and I made CERTAIN to not lose the check ball. Oiler works fine.

More info about my lathe. Mine is actually a 15" Round-Head Dual-Drive which shares many common parts with the Round-Head Regal including identical carriage except a slightly varied compound and the addition of automatic length stop mechanism attached to the bottom of the apron. Due to lack of lube my cross-slide, compound, many of the shafts etc were all worn heavily (even galled). The hardened steel ways have less than .002" wear on them (measured 3 different ways, all measurements very close to one another). Mine is a long-bed (78" between centers) and the center-support for the lead-screw and feed-shaft was not used, the apron casting was worn almost 1/8". I bored it and made a custom eccentric bushing to fit in there to restore the geometry. The feed-shaft bevel gear and journal was worn heavily as well so I sleeved taht too. All of that wear from neglect, but barely any wear on those hardened steel ways... IMHO that's the primary benefit to the hardened steel. The bed ways are the hard part to rebuild, everything else is easy. So the fact that the hardened steel bed ways wear very little is a big bonus because it saves me from sending my bed out to get reground when going through a rebuild. I rescraped everything except the bedways.

Thank you! You actually arent too far from me here in Nashville. Drop by if youre down this way. My lathe is more than useable as it is and theres not too much wear. Yet.

That was my worry about the check valve being DOA or missing. Not sure if I can get at it without a lot of disassembly.

I will post back when I investigate.

In my opinion Joe Michaels has forgot more then many on this forum will ever know. People come here for advise and there is always 2 ways to skin a cat. I would move the saddle and apron down to the far end of the bed. TS end and slide in some wood under it and the base. Then loosen the bolts and lower the apron / carriage so the saddle will slide off the bed, Then I would remove the screw and shaft bracket and take off the apron, Be careful when you flip it over as there is a ball bearing as the others said that is a check valve in the oil hole. I have seen gaskets and I have seen Permatex between the 2, so don't get hung up on that, Just put on a small amount when you assemble it so you don't plug up the holes. I would also clean and pump the oiler when it's apart.

I left off much of how to dismantle as I figure the OP and others are mechanically inclined to do it and not have to be precise on the instructions. Be sure to take pictures during and put the bolts and pasts in plastic bags marked

Mr. King,

thank you. You may have overestimated the OPs skills. I will have a look. It will be about 10 days to 2 weeks, so apologies in advance if I seem to have asked for help and then gone quiet.

thanks to all.

Bill

wfissell said:

Mr. King,

thank you. You may have overestimated the OPs skills. I will have a look. It will be about 10 days to 2 weeks, so apologies in advance if I seem to have asked for help and then gone quiet.

thanks to all.

Bill

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It's really easy. I'm not sure it can be done the way Rich suggested (by sliding the saddle off the end of the bed prior to removing the screw bracket) because the gear that drives the cross-feed screw sticks up about an inch above the top of the apron. This means you have to get at least an inch of space between the 2 before you can slide the apron or saddle to the side. I would remove the keepers/gibs on the bottom of the saddle (there should be 2 small ones in the front and 1 long one in the rear if it's like mine) then separate the apron/saddle. The saddle is heavy, and blocks supporting the apron can fall in the middle of the process. IMHO, the apron isn't going anywhere and the lead-screw and feed shaft will momentarily support it's weight without damage as long as you don't let the weight of the saddle rest on top of the cross-feed drive gear sticking up. But just to be sure, tie up the lead-screw and feed-shaft so they can't sag, then let them support the weight of the apron until you can get the saddle out of the way. From there you can remove the end bracket and slide the apron of the feed-shaft and lead-screw or you can leave it in place and work on it there being careful not to put too much strain on the shaft & screw.

An alternative would be to remove the end-bracket before separating the apron/saddle, then loosen apron, let it drop down and slide off the end leaving the saddle in-place at the end of the bed.

Hi, All,

I thought I would reply with the outcome. Again, what I do best is doing nothing. So, after making sure the apron had plenty of oil in it for the plunger/sump to use, I worked the now-free piston a bit, with the breathing/sucking noise I heard. Then I did nothing for a week.

Now it works perfectly.

Thanks to all.

Bill