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  1. #41
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    There are many that started after CNC became more user friendly to setup and operate allowing them to compete and beat manual machinery.
    They have not had the opportunity to really learn or see what a 1960 King VTL in decent shape can do with a machinist at the controls because
    they have dedicated their time and effort to be top shelf CNC guys.

    We have most of the machinery listed in this thread plus two CNC lathes whose chucks only stop turning because I need the guy who just made a shaft or whatsit to take it to
    the BP and pop a few holes and some keyways.
    We are working 10+ hours a day and have been for many moons now with now end in sight.

    On the floor to be done right now for an short example...
    Exhaust manifolds broken studs to be removed
    Various fabrications to be machined
    Pump shafts and pump parts
    Wear plates
    Saddle bracket for a pump jack to be repaired/remade
    Gear box bearing fits to be line bored

    CNC certainly have a place in a job shop but old iron in good shape is just as valuable to a company like ours.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by G&L4nahalf View Post
    Once again, this is the antique machine tool forum

    We are not talking about job shops while on the general discussion forum. Your remarks might have some pertinence there..
    So.... You want to start a new small job shop using all manual machines...

    I hope you are going to start with a lot of money, because you will end up with not much after a few years...

    What you propose is not going to be very feasible in most places...

    What happens if for example you are set up in an oil area and a customer requires some drill rod threaded to some unusual thread? You are going to be there for a long time while the modern job shop has it done on their CNC machine and is sitting at home sucking on a beer while you have just managed to set up the machine...

    What happens if a customer brings in a busted gear and asks for a new one... You have no cutter and have to make one...

    The chap wth the CNC machining centre with the 4th axis has it cut and is making out the bill while you are still grinding the tool bit..


    Manual machines complement CNC machines, but a modern job shop needs at least some form of CNC capability if starting from stratch... Not to mention the "bling" factor for new customers...I know one jobbing shop locally makes it a point to advertise they have CNC capability, even though their manual machines outnumber the CNC machines..

    Those shops with all manual machines most likely have their machines all paid off, may own the building they are in and their overheads are a lot less so they can afford to be a bit less productive or capable..

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    Fugheddabout the JD green, lets see the re-scraped ways & parts!
    Or post in Machine rebuilding forum.

    smt
    Thomas - I used to think you had a little intelligence

    7,645 posts

    hmmm

    you've had a lot to say...... hmmm

    naw.. just a bedroom bad guy

    poundin on the keyboard

    in his skivveys

    after too many beers

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  7. #44
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    For the memory of a very good long term friend in Australia, I going to go through this one more time; with my comments in red to your overall thoughtful comments..


    So.... You want to start a new small job shop using all manual machines...
    No, I don't want to start a job shop using all manual machines.. I suggested there is work out there for someone that has a manual machine tool..


    I hope you are going to start with a lot of money, because you will end up with not much after a few years... ????

    What you propose is not going to be very feasible in most places...
    It will be very feasible

    What happens if for example you are set up in an oil area and a customer requires some drill rod threaded to some unusual thread? You are going to be there for a long time while the modern job shop has it done on their CNC machine and is sitting at home sucking on a beer while you have just managed to set up the machine...
    Worked in Houston for about 20 years. Cut a many tapered thread well pipe with quick start. Preferred to do the quick-start on a medium sized mill though.. Does your CNC machine have a 40' bed ? Do the present ones do this work without programming? It's been a good 20 years since I ran one.. and did my own programming.. Your guy may be still sucking..

    What happens if a customer brings in a busted gear and asks for a new one... You have no cutter and have to make one...
    Did a few of those too

    The chap wth the CNC machining centre with the 4th axis has it cut and is making out the bill while you are still grinding the tool bit..
    Well first off, I think we would be in a tie, putting the well string in the mach with chainfalls or a crane. I already had my bit in the bench drawer.. again, does his CNC machining centre with the 4th axis have programming in the bench drawer ? or can it read minds ?

    Manual machines complement CNC machines, but a modern job shop needs at least some form of CNC capability if starting from stratch... Not to mention the "bling" factor for new customers...I know one jobbing shop locally makes it a point to advertise they have CNC capability, even though their manual machines outnumber the CNC machines..
    The discussion is not about a modern job shop.. It is all about putting someone's treasure to work. If the work comes in.. which it will if they follow what I have written.. Then it may be time to consider CNC.

    Those shops with all manual machines most likely have their machines all paid off, may own the building they are in and their overheads are a lot less so they can afford to be a bit less productive or capable..
    Yes, and in most cases for the antique machine tool acquirers, the overhead will be almost zero..

    Hope we've cleared it up mate

  8. #45
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    You hate CNC. We get it.

    Have you ever used a CNC? Or is it just some wizbang machine for us dumpy morons?

    I'd rather drive a minivan than stand at a manual machine to make more than one of anything.

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  10. #46
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    The machines that I ran in the last shop that I worked and see as being "classic" in the sense of usefulness are these:

    Of course, the flexible (in more than one way, but damned handy) Bridgy. Ours was a dovetail J-head.

    K&T 2H vertical and 3CH vertical

    2 American Pacemakers

    Gisholt No.4 turret lathe

    No.2 Davis keyseater

    Cincinnati-Bickford 3' 9" RA drill

    Taft-Pierce No.1 grinder

    Gallmeyer-Livingston No.35 grinder

    Arter grinder

    Majestic ID/OD grinder

    I missed all of those machines as soon as I rolled my Kennedys over to the new shop.

    (and the punch presses and the rest of the machines too)

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronReb View Post
    There are many that started after CNC became more user friendly to setup and operate allowing them to compete and beat manual machinery.
    They have not had the opportunity to really learn or see what a 1960 King VTL in decent shape can do with a machinist at the controls because
    they have dedicated their time and effort to be top shelf CNC guys.

    We have most of the machinery listed in this thread plus two CNC lathes whose chucks only stop turning because I need the guy who just made a shaft or whatsit to take it to
    the BP and pop a few holes and some keyways.
    We are working 10+ hours a day and have been for many moons now with now end in sight.

    On the floor to be done right now for an short example...
    Exhaust manifolds broken studs to be removed
    Various fabrications to be machined
    Pump shafts and pump parts
    Wear plates
    Saddle bracket for a pump jack to be repaired/remade
    Gear box bearing fits to be line bored

    CNC certainly have a place in a job shop but old iron in good shape is just as valuable to a company like ours.
    ironreb you made my day

    what you wrote is music to my ears

    I nominate you for the top post

    I knew this 74 yr old horse was not done yet.

    I am ready to fire up my old dodge RV and head to suid Louisiana.. Around Lake Charles..

    Been thinking about it for about 6 mos now.

    After I've had my breakfast of boodan, and danced with a cajun gal to Le Angelina and Jole Blond of course; then I would like to see if Wessendorf and Nelms is still open in Houston. Or somebody else in Slidell ?

    Bless you brother and I'm not jokin

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  14. #48
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    Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post

    Fugheddabout the JD green, lets see the re-scraped ways & parts!
    Or post in Machine rebuilding forum.

    smt
    Quote Originally Posted by G&L4nahalf View Post
    Thomas - I used to think you had a little intelligence

    7,645 posts

    hmmm

    you've had a lot to say...... hmmm

    naw.. just a bedroom bad guy

    poundin on the keyboard

    in his skivveys

    after too many beers
    FWIW, I'm essentially a non-drinker. Nothing against it, but i don't do it. So let's take that out of the equation.

    Now, what is your large problem with me asking you to post pictures of a rebuild job on a shaper that you bragged about? I use a shaper and planer somewhat frequently. People on this antique site love to look at pictures of slotter, shapers and planers. Most people that talk about rebuilds are happy to show the pictures. Are you hiding something?

    smt
    Last edited by stephen thomas; 08-30-2014 at 07:11 AM. Reason: add some details

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  16. #49
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    I guess Im just a bit surprised by the discussion, most of the machines mentioned I think of as vintage, not antique. The simple distinction is that vintage means higher speed, carbide capable machines normally discussed in the other forums, not the slow, flatbelt iron usually discussed here.

    FWIW, several of my best suppliers have pristine vintage manual equipment from the 50s-70s. Original and/or rebuilt, nice iron is out there and not terribly expensive. Our plant's toolroom is the same way, other than the DROs and a few CNCs, its straight out of the 70s. To be fair tho, I suspect we'd likely have to travel rather far to buy some new HBMs and other big equipment.

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  18. #50
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    In my mythical cool old shop filled with cool old machine tools I think I want to add one of those P&W's from before 1919 you mentioned earlier in the thread.

    That sounds really cool to me!

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  20. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by G&L4nahalf View Post
    ..... then I would like to see if Wessendorf and Nelms is still open in Houston. Or somebody else in Slidell ?.....
    Wessendorf and Nelmes is long gone!!!!

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  22. #52
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    My ideal "old iron" machine shop would consist of

    Lehmann Hollow Spindle lathe 25" x 12 hole with 19 foot bed, with taper attachment, air kickout, rapid traverse, steadies, lots of tooling.

    Good old Lodge & Shipley Model X 18-20" with about 8 foot between centers, taper attachment, steadies, lots of tooling

    Nice size radial arm drill press, a have to for repairing elevators, slip bows, BOP stuff, etc.

    A HBM like a G & L 450 or Lucas 35 or 45

    A nice size mill like a No. 3 K & T or Cincinnati vertical,

    A smaller mill like a Index 747, no Bridgeport!

    A peerless hacksaw Rachine a POS

    All sorts of welding/cutting equipment

    This is what you have to have for a machine shop down here in South Texas!!!

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  24. #53
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    12'' hole Libby with taper and thread box.

    36'' wide bed Leblond.

    24'' L&S G

    20'' L&S X

    17'' Clausing (noisy but real handy)

    Hardinge HC

    32'' GE shaper.

    O G&L HBM

    Bridgeport series 2


    150 ton horizontal press

    10 ton overhead crane and several auxiliarys

    All well tooled and in working shape.

    These are esential to turn a nickle here but are supported by others.

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  26. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavey Metal View Post
    12'' hole Libby with taper and thread box.


    150 ton horizontal press


    These are esential to turn a nickle here but are supported by others.
    I can't tell you how many nickels we have turned with our horizontal press.
    Ours is a 250T with an 18" ram.
    Not many shops in our area can press an 8" shaft out of an 15000 lb bull gear, make new shaft and press it back in.
    This capability has given us a leg up on many shops that compete against us.

    If OSHA walked in and saw us pressing 100t on a piece of 3" bar stock about *this* long so we can push out a shaft they would have a shit fit I am sure.


    Edit for short story on a job we did on ours.

    We were pressing on a shaft a while back and were pooring the coals to the hydraulic pump on the press when all of a sudden....BOOOOOM!!!
    We broke the farking strong back to the press, we are talking several thousand pounds worth of cast iron meat here.
    Everyone in the shop had skid marks in their pants that day.
    I think I developed a heart palpation over that shit....

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  28. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Yeah. That's why I said it's ridiculous to call something the "top" if it's obsolete. It's just your favorite.
    how are those machines obsolete? Different technology has made them obsolete for certain jobs but that does not make the machines obsolete - they are still relevant for lots of jobs.

    Neither does not being in production disqualify them as candidates for the best....provided apples are compared to apples (a prerequisite to a reasonable discussion). "whats the best manual lathe of such and such a work envelope" - I'd hardly rule out my 10ee or DSG.....unless the Q was "whats the best manual lathe of such and such work envelope currently in production"

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  30. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronReb View Post
    I can't tell you how many nickels we have turned with our horizontal press.
    Ours is a 250T with an 18" ram.
    Not many shops in our area can press an 8" shaft out of an 15000 lb bull gear, make new shaft and press it back in.
    This capability has given us a leg up on many shops that compete against us.

    If OSHA walked in and saw us pressing 100t on a piece of 3" bar stock about *this* long so we can push out a shaft they would have a shit fit I am sure.


    Edit for short story on a job we did on ours.

    We were pressing on a shaft a while back and were pooring the coals to the hydraulic pump on the press when all of a sudden....BOOOOOM!!!
    We broke the farking strong back to the press, we are talking several thousand pounds worth of cast iron meat here.
    Everyone in the shop had skid marks in their pants that day.
    I think I developed a heart palpation over that shit....

    I used to do similar work on a similar hydraulic press controlled by a pneumatic foot switch. I used to put a cast iron block on the foot switch, the block had a length of string attached to it so I could pull it off the switch. I used to hide around the corner and just work off the sound of the pump.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  32. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    how are those machines obsolete? Different technology has made them obsolete for certain jobs but that does not make the machines obsolete - they are still relevant for lots of jobs.
    Obsolete means you can't buy a new machine that is equivalent. For example, you can't buy a new metal shaper in this country. The same for turret lathes (some smaller exceptions) and cam screw machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Obsolete means you can't buy a new machine that is equivalent. For example, you can't buy a new metal shaper in this country. The same for turret lathes (some smaller exceptions) and cam screw machines.
    not what obsolete means.

    http://dictionary.reverso.net/englis...ition/obsolete

    manufacturers have twisted this word into meaning they don't make it anymore. They're dickheads for doing so, but obsolete means something that isn't used or in use anymore. A monarch 10ee for example is not obsolete.....now if no one used them or lathes like them anymore then it would be obsolete.

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  35. #59
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    "
    Originally Posted by stephen thomas
    Fugheddabout the JD green, lets see the re-scraped ways & parts!
    Or post in Machine rebuilding forum.

    smt
    Thomas - I used to think you had a little intelligence

    7,645 posts

    hmmm

    you've had a lot to say...... hmmm

    naw.. just a bedroom bad guy

    poundin on the keyboard

    in his skivveys

    after too many beers "

    I think before you make such a statement you need to show a lot more of your work and skill....SMT has....

    BTW, in your original post you list GMC Johanson gage blocks...... If you look closely at them you'll see they are marked "Ford".

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  37. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by alskdjfhg View Post
    As I seem to always have to justify my opinion; I'm 17 and don't even have a concrete floor yet, much less than a shop, so take my opinion with a grain of salt

    Eventually I will have a shop and I'm certain it will be a manual job shop, I highly doubt I will do anything with CNC.

    I'm probably not going to mess with CNC because I just "get" mechanical things, if I can see it, touch it, play with it, see how it works, I feel much more comfortable with it.

    I don't like the idea of so many things that can go wrong and I wouldn't know were to start. Of course learning to repair and work on CNC's is a skill that is possible to learn. But for me, the learning curve will be pretty steep, as I'm not going to get a job as a machinist/repair person/etc, I would have to buy the machine that I would learn on.

    The risk of buying a lemon is bad enough when your ignorant and looking at manual machines, but CNC gives me the willies because I just don't know crap about it. It's like an old diesel engine (was troubleshooting one this weekend....) if you can get fuel to it and a hot battery, it should run. I like things like that.

    Simple, easy to work on and relativity cheap on is a HUGE plus when your a teenager learning this stuff by watching YouTube videos and reading PM.

    I like that my old belt driven boat anchor L&S has a quick change gear box and a transmission in the apron and that's about it. Would a more modern machine be nicer? Of course. Will a CNC pile drive this machine? DUH... that's why I got it for FREE, it came out of a CNC shop. But if I get a job for this machine, it would probably pay it's self off the first use.

    And I'm sorry, anyone who says that manual machines are only fit for scrap are too arrogant to stop and think what they are good for. Here in Houston (just from my observation) the large manuals still have a place. Saw a biggish (7ft arm) Carlton RA drill making about a 3in hole in a block of steel and pulling chips that were about thick as a quarter. In a job like that, I don't see how a CNC could be this drill; Center punch the block of metal, clamp it down, locate the drill with a dead center in a spindle, change to big drill and then set back and blow the chips off every once in a while and watch the machine eat.

    I could see a CNC taking the part from there and finishing it up, but for rough stock removal, even my boat anchor L&S could make some impressive chips.

    I'm not going to be running a shop full time so I like machines that are relatively cheap and would not mind waiting a while between jobs. And as I'm planning to pursue a degree in engineering, I don't need to run a shop full time.

    Everybody's needs are different, for me big manuals work, for someone else that need a machine to give them absolute efficiency and 100% productivity, of course they are going to go CNC.

    To me manual machine still have a use, large, REPAIR work or jobbing work where you duplicate a pattern.

    But as I said, read this with a grain of salt...
    Matt, you're not an idiot (I hope). I have friends in their mid 70's who started out on planers who now and for many decades have owned shops and run CNC's.

    They would tell you the stuff you have should be scrapped, but they need to make many people's livings with their machines. You apparently have no intention of that or haven't realized it yet.

    I don't have a job shop and I'm a younger guy. My shop makes my parts for sale direct to customers. Works well for me.

    The oldest machine I currently have in my shop is my 14"X30" 1951 Axelson. Fantastic lathe. It ran 10 hours straight a few days ago and I loved every minute of watching an employee work his ass off making those parts while I ran two CNC's that are right beside it.

    Not owning a job shop, but still being very involved in friend's job shops I can't help but point out how asinine it would be to jump into that without milling and turning centers. You'd be an absolute idiot unless you were in some geographic oil field anomaly area.

    G&L4nahalf you do realize that many CNC's are antiques now too? Not only that, but also that a seeming majority of active 70+ year old machinists today use and understand CNC machines?

    Geez. Lots of guys in their 80's who ran the shit out of CNC's for the last 30+ years.

    A good machine for a job shop is the one you can afford with CASH.


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