lodge & shipley pouring new head stock bearings

idacal · Aug 6, 2018

I have been looking at getting a newer lathe but everything Im looking at that has a 11' bed is serious money and I have used the length several times. I Like the machine except for when I try to do a bearing fit. the things that are wrong with it are : when doing a course thread (5 to 7threads per inch) Im having to set my cutter quite a bit from a 90 to the material otherwise it looks like Im cutting buttress threads the tail stock is .005 low and trying to part chatters like a 2 year old. I have learned to work through everything but the bearing fits I have never hit 2 of them in a row even following all the advice thats been given here. brink at the wrong time and its gone I only use this lathe a couple times a month so I would hate to have a 10000.00 lathe sitting in the shop for personal use.
Alright thats the back ground what kind of babbit would be used? I can pick up some grade 7 for about 2.00 per pound or order some other grade about 6 per pound. I have poured zink and babbit before but not on something that needed these tolerances. I was thinking of building a jig to pour the shells then turn them out on a different lathe. just need advice. pictures, couple of picks rethreading cable tool bit 15" bit

rj1939 · Aug 6, 2018

The originals were very likely bronze, that would be what I favored.
To me, it seems like babbit would be as much work, unless you were set up for it and did it frequently.

Looks like you have a pretty good load in there to turn.

johnoder · Aug 6, 2018

"White metal" inserts that were replaceable

There is nothing wrong at all with duplicating these from C932 or C936 Bronze

What possibly wore them out is the amazingly thick glop folks seem to have to use for oil in these old gear heads - never thinking the same oil has to oil very closely fitted spindle bearings

ISO 46 and let her sing

On Edit....add a 1910 scan to show how far back they go for sure

Jim Christie · Aug 6, 2018

Seeing that at least on this job, it looks like you are running with quite a weight there and working at the tailstock end I was wondering if you were sure that bearings in the the live or revolving centre in the tailstock are in good condition ?
If not they could be causing some of the problem and maybe easier to fix than the headstock bearings .
Also is the centre rated for the weight you are turning there?
Fixing the headstock bearings could be the answer but if the tailstock centre is not up to par, or too light for the job you might still have problems after new or repaired headstock bearings are in place.
Just a couple of things that popped into my mind when I saw the pictures.
Regards,
Jim

idacal · Aug 6, 2018

bronze would be a lot easier I will do it that way. does not having hardened shafts matter?
it was about 600 lbs I turned real slow like the slowest speed it would turn it felt like a hand grabber everytime it rotated. no local shops will cut those for me anymore, everything local is cnc, and they are not putting something that old and out of balance in their machines, so I either ship and wait, or do it myself.
thats what I have in it for oil its been a great lathe. the other thing is how would the carriage be getting racked enough to show up in the thread cut?
Im running into the problem when Im turning anything, its worse when Im not using the tail stock. that was just a picture of what I put the old girl through

johnoder · Aug 6, 2018

bronze would be a lot easier I will do it that way. does not having hardened shafts matter?

It probably does matter - like it will only last another 200 years instead of 300.

You can always grind the journals and go for another .010 under when that happens - since the bearing shells will always be custom built to suit

If it was a hard journal design you could go with C954 Aluminum Bronze

My 24" has a center hold down for the carriage saddle (4 - 3/4" bolts) - PLUS the hold down on the back - are yours there?

idacal · Aug 6, 2018

mines a 16" and I think so, Im not sure what you mean by the hold down in the back I didn't know that the center hold down was surface that was ridden on I guess I hadn't thought it out. I will check tomorrow that might be really worn down. I have a chunck of 660 but its just a little small only 4" od Im going to double check everything befor I order a piece but not having to pour saves a huge amount of hassle might actually get it done

thermite · Aug 7, 2018

idacal said:
bronze would be a lot easier I will do it that way. does not having hardened shafts matter?
it was about 600 lbs I turned real slow like the slowest speed it would turn it felt like a hand grabber everytime it rotated. no local shops will cut those for me anymore, everything local is cnc, and they are not putting something that old and out of balance in their machines, so I either ship and wait, or do it myself.
thats what I have in it for oil its been a great lathe. the other thing is how would the carriage be getting racked enough to show up in the thread cut?
Im running into the problem when Im turning anything, its worse when Im not using the tail stock. that was just a picture of what I put the old girl through

That work is typical of what they did, heavy industry of their era.

On one of our Niles I was all-too intimate with, 4 thou of ellipse had to be hand-filed then abrasive paper polished (on a backing) out of each of several bearing fits where Timkens were meant to take up residence.

That was just part of what they paid 3 shifts of us for instead of rebuilding the lathes [1].

Aluminium or Nickel-Aluminium Bronze won't gain you anything the lathe is in need of. It WILL be harder to prevent damaging the spindle, so I'd simply avoid it.

The bearings have ample area to live long and prosper with old skewl "bearing Bronze", most especially if you see to modernized lube and plenty of it, per JO's hint.

Things that move:

- Cee-clamps on top-slide to carriage were "standard" about one task out of every 3 or 4.

- Compounds only went onto a Galis lathe on average once every week or two weeks, our shift. Rest of the time they wore massive 4-Ways that mounted directly to the top slide of the cross. Most ESPECIALLY for threading the large threads we did when we threaded at all.

-"live" centers were not used on finish passes nor even CLOSE TO. Roughing only or not at all. Finish was dead center. Always.

Most work was into corn-cob stick weld. Our Old Iron needed all the help it could get. Wear was atrocious. Everywhere.

Your lathe? Seniour guy on each shift wudda had first-dibs, nice as it is!

You never had the privilege of seeing what those old "China used to be in Appalachia" grade shops worked with?

Quite literally "You ain't seen s**t", coz shite the machines very much WERE!

[1]
Company figured why fix the machines when there were men hungry enough for the top rate of $5 / hour to work their way toward if for long years at $3 to $4 an hour.

pressbrake1 · Aug 7, 2018

So your a evil cable driller! Most of those I know can barely talk.

idacal · Aug 7, 2018

pressbrake1 yep out here most of them can only talk coherently through the 2 teeth they have left, if its before 9 in the morning and they are only on there 4th beer.most well repair, fishing, and cleanup jobs, you can have a rotary and a 2 or 3 man crew at 500 per hour, or a 1950s cable tool, and one guy who knows what he doing at 250 thats when they call me.
thermite that sounds like why I became my own boss, I enjoy working with old stuff, but I hate working with shit, will if I have to, but dont like it and am going to fix it if possible. boss was driving his childhood dream corvette around while I was filtering leaked hydraulic oil to pour it back in to the rig, rather than tear the pump down send it in and fix the seal, because the hydraulic shop wouldn't do work for us without payment in advance.
Im going check on those carriage slides and see if I can figure out whats going on.

Peter from Holland · Aug 7, 2018

Most of the time those bearings are adjustable and need to be scraped in line and on diameter in the bore
Many of them are supported on 3 ridges So if you tighten them you get a 3 lobbed bore
Thats what you want
Check your shaft for roundness and straightness before anything else and decide if it is worth the hassle
Mostly they are not straight nore round on machines of that age
If you grind the shaft do it reaal smooth or lapp it

Peter

Paolo_MD · Aug 7, 2018

On the lines of what John, Peter and others have said, before touching those bearings, I would quantify the play and assess all over the lathe.
Preferably with the chuck off, put a dial indicator on the top of the spindle, insert a rod. dowel in the spindle hole applying downward and upward pressure of ~75-100lb. Repeat with the indicator on the side of the spindle and push-pull with the same intensity: if the movements you observe are in the range of 0.001" that bearing is fine. Personally, I wouldn't touch it if it is less than 0.002".
Repeat on the other end of the spindle.

A saddle tends to wear mostly at the edges and ends up bearing in the middle, which should be relieved instead. A rocking saddle or badly adjusted/worn gibs generally cause chatter and other troubles much more than worn bearings.
To test it, rest the indicator on one of the wings of the saddle with the tip on the corresponding way. Lock the half-nuts and, with the wheel try to move the carriage back and forth. I'd bet that the rocking will be visible with the naked eye.
It's not a sin to readjust the gibs during the cut to comply to the amount of wear at that particular locations of cross-slide and compound.
For the saddle, the intervention is a bit more drastic, since you must relieve the central portion and possibly scrape the four wings to contact the bed at the same time. If you have a mill, you can use it to relieve the central portion without much worry about accurate setup, since you're creating a clearance. Worst case scenario, you can accomplish the job with a judicious use of a die or angle grinder.
Paolo

johnoder · Aug 7, 2018

How I made some split, flanged bushings starts at Post #43 here

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ory/set-up-bore-apron-176541/?highlight=apron

C Clement · Aug 7, 2018

idacal,

If you send me a PM with the rough dimensions of the bearings you need to make, I'll check and see if I have a chunk of 932 or 954 bearing bronze that would work for you. My job right out of high school was helping behind a 1952 Bucyrus Erie cable tool rig. A couple of summers doing that encouraged me to become a geologist so I could watch the drillers work instead. 30 something years later and I still get to watch the drillers do all the work but now it is reverse flood and sonic rigs.

Craig

thermite · Aug 7, 2018

Paolo_MD said:
On the lines of what John, Peter and others have said, before touching those bearings, I would quantify the play and assess all over the lathe.
Preferably with the chuck off, put a dial indicator on the top of the spindle, insert a rod. dowel in the spindle hole applying downward and upward pressure of ~75-100lb. Repeat with the indicator on the side of the spindle and push-pull with the same intensity: if the movements you observe are in the range of 0.001" that bearing is fine. Personally, I wouldn't touch it if it is less than 0.002".
Repeat on the other end of the spindle.

A saddle tends to wear mostly at the edges and ends up bearing in the middle, which should be relieved instead. A rocking saddle or badly adjusted/worn gibs generally cause chatter and other troubles much more than worn bearings.
To test it, rest the indicator on one of the wings of the saddle with the tip on the corresponding way. Lock the half-nuts and, with the wheel try to move the carriage back and forth. I'd bet that the rocking will be visible with the naked eye.
It's not a sin to readjust the gibs during the cut to comply to the amount of wear at that particular locations of cross-slide and compound.
For the saddle, the intervention is a bit more drastic, since you must relieve the central portion and possibly scrape the four wings to contact the bed at the same time. If you have a mill, you can use it to relieve the central portion without much worry about accurate setup, since you're creating a clearance. Worst case scenario, you can accomplish the job with a judicious use of a die or angle grinder.
Paolo

+1 On all of the above. "Assess".. then go after the "easy win" items FIRST and fastest!

Cee-clamping a top slide. Lead-shot or scrap-iron weighting one corner of a rocking-horse carriage. Plastic wedges that can slide, one JOB at a go.

"Monkey patching", yes. But yah gotta be able to EAT reg'lar-like and play catch-up to be able to buy time and cash for the NEXT steps.

BTW . if it DID have white-metal bearings? Convert to Bronze. Over time, most makers did just that themselves - before changing castings to be able to accommodate roller-bearings.

Sustained speed, one needs rollers, ELSE finicky no-fail pressurized lube systems.

Precise, durable, shock-resistant, and on-the-cheap? STILL very well served with plain bearings and BFBI lube & delivery.

pressbrake1 · Aug 7, 2018

C Clement said:
idacal,

If you send me a PM with the rough dimensions of the bearings you need to make, I'll check and see if I have a chunk of 932 or 954 bearing bronze that would work for you. My job right out of high school was helping behind a 1952 Bucyrus Erie cable tool rig. A couple of summers doing that encouraged me to become a geologist so I could watch the drillers work instead. 30 something years later and I still get to watch the drillers do all the work but now it is reverse flood and sonic rigs.

Craig

90% of the work I do is for geo drilling companies.
A few tried sonic rigs but found them a bit unreliable and very expensive.
Health and safety want to kill off cable rigs but they seem to be able to smash through anything and cheap and simple to repair

idacal · Aug 7, 2018

I have .005 play in the up and down direction at the mount .008 at the face of the chuck, side to side was .004. When I used plastigauge on the bearings I had .0025 of gap. Im thinking those are shot. haven't checked the thrust bushing slop yet not sure how it works without taking it back apart again.
the carriage feels loose so Im sure I will need to work on that also. all the clamps are there but they are not riding on the bed. one thing to remember is this kind of stuff is fun for me. and I know I will have a boat anchor when its done but its relaxing messing in the shop and cheaper than a divorce.
I mainly run a air rotary rig and am set up to do direct fluid drilling on bigger wells. I think we are getting close to 4000 foot of 6" steel pipe in the ground this year. but the cable tool is what I started with. I work it in the winter, working on farm wells, and the gravy weekend projects, fishing jobs, dropped pumps stuff like that.
and it is white metal in there

thermite · Aug 7, 2018

idacal said:
I have .005 play in the up and down direction at the mount .008 at the face of the chuck, side to side was .004. When I used plastigauge on the bearings I had .0025 of gap. Im thinking those are shot.
.
.
and it is white metal in there

No, I don't think they are shot. Not so long as they are split-shells, anyway.

Someone with more current experience can walk you through a shim and touch up that is tedious, but waaay less work and near-zero cash expense than fabbing new.

And STILL having the same tedium - or worse - to final-fit anyway!

idacal · Aug 9, 2018

I sat down and watched a couple of videos on youtube of truing up an old lathe Im not sure if I'm up for that kind of a party I was thinking turn them to size throw them in and go to town with a little bit tighter lathe. Im going to lift off the cover again and get some dimensions I had them wrote down from last time I opened it up but can't find the notes. Shimming it wouldn't tighten up the side to side would it? Im still in the planning stage.
c clement thank you for your offer Im not sure what Im going to do yet.

johnoder · Aug 9, 2018

Original Selective Head journal dimensions for 16" are 3 1/4 X 5 1/8 front and 2 1/16 X 4 3/8 rear as of December 1926

And in Mike C's 1916 scan they are 3 1/4 X 4 3/4 and 2 1/16 X 4, respectively

So you need the ODs - and you need to confirm over all lengths

If you ever wanted to date your 16, the five digit serial is between TWO REAR VEE WAYS at right end

lodge & shipley pouring new head stock bearings

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