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  1. #21
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    its 23691 Im almost wondering if I would be better off pouring some white metal slugs to turn at least then when I screw them up the first 2 times I can just remelt whats left. just thinking definitely will save my old shells just in case my repair job is worse than the original

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    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    its 23691 Im almost wondering if I would be better off pouring some white metal slugs to turn at least then when I screw them up the first 2 times I can just remelt whats left. just thinking definitely will save my old shells just in case my repair job is worse than the original
    Which direction you go partly comes down to whether you have access to another lathe. One "good enough" to polish the steel spindle. The bearings are only half the story.

    So.. if you have at least the top shell out so as to lay eyeball (and metrology..) onto that spindle, you can then assess whether they might be "correctible" rather than forcing replacement.

    EVEN IF.. "correction" had a limited life, you could then have your OWN machine capable of making its own new bearing shells.

    At which point, personally, I would convert to bearing Bronze.

    It is just easier to machine it from homogenous stock of known and predictable characteristics, than to cast (you'd want a cylindrical tube mould, not a solid slug) and then also machine white-metal.

    Recast of Babbitt is not like re-cast of ice-cubes, either.

    It drosses. Slag inclusions are not friends of good bearings, so you have losses and fluxing, etc. to deal with as well as the usual hazards of handling a significant mass of molten metal and its source of melting heat.

    If you were setting up to make a thousand as the OEM did? Surely casting could pay-off.

    For one set? Ever? Bronze. Machined from cored bar. It's common enough.

    Unless you figure it is your "last, ever" lathe? I'd try REALLY HARD ("cheat", actually..) to salvage the existing bearings rather than "make" anything.

  4. #23
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    23691 is 1919. It's 99 now, probably a tad tired

    salvage the existing bearings
    At least get an idea of wall thickness - then we can see if the screw holes are a deal killer

    These Babbitt lined cast iron shells were bored out and lined with bronze from each end - since there was a slot mid way for the oiling ring
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails p1000352sm.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    23691 is 1919. It's 99 now, probably a tad tired
    "Tired" yes, but still turning. At least it hasn't galled and seized up!

    Or maybe it did, and my G'Dad (B&O roundhouse foreman) simply knocked it free with a maul, gave it the oil a year overdue, and carried-on, indifferent.

    Yah gotta know the steam age...



    Laying Mark One Eyeball on the innards will tell that tale.

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    all right ran out to the shop and pulled the motor and bearing caps off I must not have ever opened up the back bearing cap because it still had a shim in it but here is some pictures it has had some linkage repairs it looks like by all the brazing that was done in the housing
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0150-2.jpg   img_0151-2.jpg   img_0152-2.jpg   img_0153-2.jpg   img_0154-2.jpg  


  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    all right ran out to the shop and pulled the motor and bearing caps off I must not have ever opened up the back bearing cap because it still had a shim in it but here is some pictures it has had some linkage repairs it looks like by all the brazing that was done in the housing
    You can now see what John meant about the screws, yah?

    Looks damned good for its age. Or even much less than its age. I'd guess lube was always taken good care of.

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    If you have no intention of running that lathe fast enough to warm up 10 cst oil (1500 rpm for a 2 inch diameter bearing with .0015" clearance), feed it much thicker oil. How thick an oil you can feed it depends on the rpm and the load and the clearance and how much thermal conduction the bearing has to the headstock.

    Basically wider clearance and thicker oil means higher losses for the same bearing load.

    at slow speeds of up to a few hundred rpm you might be able to get away with something as thick as chainsaw bar oil in your spindle. what are you using now?


    secondly, a lot of your near the head stock problems (assuming on longer work you have the tail stock for support) with the diameter tolerances have to do with the force on the spindle presses it out of the center of rotation. how far the force on the part by the cutting tool pushes the spindle away from the cutting tool depends on both the cutting forces and the rpm, and what angle the leading edge of the cutting tool is oriented! this is likely why you have so much repeatability problems because your .004 side to side slop translates to a significant angle change of the headstock spindle relative to the ways.

    if you have the lathe twisted to get a finishing cut mostly straight, its going to make a taper during a heavier cut. the difference in taper will be directly proportional to how much the spindle is pushed away from the tool and how far the spindle bearings are separated (nearly 2 feet?). additionally, the further the cutting tool is away from the spindle the more torque/moment it has pushing on the spindle bearings!

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    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    If you have no intention of running that lathe fast enough to warm up 10 cst oil (1500 rpm for a 2 inch diameter bearing with .0015" clearance), feed it much thicker oil. How thick an oil you can feed it depends on the rpm and the load and the clearance and how much thermal conduction the bearing has to the headstock.
    It also doesn't work worth a s**t on lathes of this vintage.

    These are sliding, unpressurized bearings, not "dynamic", pressure-fed bearings such as those in an IC engine.

    Tool load comes up, the thick oil is simple displaced. Tries to recover. Becomes a fluidics oscillator. It doesn't have 60 PSIG forcing a steady near-as-dammit "solid" wedge in front of it at 1,200 to 4,000 + + RPM.

    If the "thicker oil" monkey-patch had ever been worth a damn under duress, it would have been a hundred and eighty years in widespread use already, and backed up by an OEM program with charts as to when to move-up to the next thicker grade as the spindle mileage grew.

    What can it do INSTEAD? Give a person running one of our old Niles veslothoraptors a reliable four thousandths of an inch ellipse on every damned fit on a Diesel yard switcher's drive axle. Serious PITA, because the little pig in need was geared, direct drive, not electric, and had a LOT of fits that had to be hand-filed back cylindrical, power OFF, then abrasive polished, Alox cloth on a backing.

    The maker's were not lacking in experience, but that "thicker oil" did not happen on anything but a very modest grade change - sometimes to THINNER oils, BTW. RPM and ambient temp extremes were part of that.

    Wear, one CORRECTED. It was never that hard to do.

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    no need for bullshit thermite

    go pickup a 100 year old book on journal bearings and do the math on what works for oil viscosity, rpm, and clearance and load.

    my brother's car from 2005 has ~1 inch diameter journal bearings with perhaps 3 tenths of slop, half inch wide, fed with 5w20 oil (which is actually thicker oil than is recommended for the .001" per inch clearance that is typical for 100 year old lathe spindles) . the same bearing loads on similarly sized engines 20-30 years ago were fed 10w30 and were 1 inch diameter 1 inch wide bearings, a good .001" slop.

    "Becomes a fluidics oscillator"

    no, oil whirl is only a problem at higher speeds. you might have a point if OP tried to use 20w-50 oil in said lathe and run it at 3000 rpm.


    and we've heard countless stories of folks who used 10w-30 motor oil in their southbend spindles for years at up to 1000 rpm (1.875" diameter, 2.5ish long, .001" clearance) (i know from experience its going to heat up too hot at higher than that) but when it heats up the viscosity drops. older oils the viscosity dropped a lot more than modern engine oils do.


    you really can shove bar chain oil in a .005" clearance 3 inch diameter spindle just don't run it so fast it heats up. should be plenty stiff.

    my brother and i actually ran his 1995 vw jetta on rape seed oil. in 1200 miles the base viscosity at room temperature of the rapeseed oil increased 4 times due to oxidation and polymerization. at temperature, it was only double the viscosity of stock motor oil.

    so the soybean and perhaps rapeseed oil based bar chain oil might actually be a good option because when the spindle bearing heats up, the oil will lose viscosity much slower than a straight mineral oil will. but faster perhaps than synthetic motor oils might. anyhow.. i know a number of folks here say you should not use synthetic motor oils for spindle oils. i'm not sure why other than concern that the modifiers might not be compatible, but in a cast iron on steel application that's not a problem. there is no brass or copper to corrode.


    i use low viscosity 6 cst atf in my sb lathe spindle rather than 4 cst velocite 10. i could probably run it up to 2000 rpm if i wanted to. it works fine. a lot of what i'm doing recently is lower rpm so i will probably switch to the 10w40 oil someone gave me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    no need for bullshit thermite

    go pickup a 100 year old book on journal bearings and do the math on what works for oil viscosity, rpm, and clearance and load.

    my brother's car from 2005 has ~1 inch diameter journal bearings with perhaps 3 tenths of slop, half inch wide, fed with 5w20 oil. the same bearing loads on similarly sized engines 20-30 years ago were fed 10w30 and were 1 inch diameter 1 inch wide bearings, a good .001" slop.
    Happen to have one in my attic just about that age. Thing is, I READ IT when it was only 40 years old.

    One of the two "A" in the University course that covered such bearings? And the only "A" on the final? That was more recent. 1964. Running those old Niles 2d shift, same era, Union Shop, was what paid the tuition.

    Mobil One had not arrived yet. We had "Steen C" though. Ran my '52 Ford on 50W then straight STP when the mains still knocked. $90 car, sold for $75 as-was, L-head mill wasn't worth the rebuild. I'd done too many flathead Fords for good sense already.

    This spindle bearing does NOT equate to an IC engine bearing just because both are cylindrical!

    A guy named William Lodge KNEW that, he knew that a very long time ago, and I've NO cause to believe he'd agree with chain bar oil or salad oil to run a lathe built by his firm!

    One that has proven itself one of the finest of makers who ever pounded a drag of Michigan green if your brother missed that somehow!

    Let's revisit this in another 30 years, shall we? You should have enough rebuilds of yer own by then to not need to refer to your brothers owners manual, yah?

    Ear buds, ass ump tions, and comic books.... sheesh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Let's revisit this in another 30 years, shall we? You should have enough rebuilds of yer own by then to not need to refer to your brothers owners manual, yah?
    my brother had a journal bearing failure on a certain vessel. ohio. underwater class. or maybe it was the other boat that is out the other half of the time.. if you get my drift.

    iirc it was on the order of 10 inch diameter, running on the order of 1000 rpm. for you south bend folks that's 5000 rpm for your precious spindle bearings.

    Top half of the bearing was installed backwards. yes it was scraped in to whatever fitment and clearance they wanted, but when the top half of the babbit bearing was taken off, then installed on the shaft again, they put it on backwards accidentally which shifted the top half of the bearing 12 thousandths of an inch radially. which meant metal on metal contact with the shaft most likely, but no one noticed. and for what its worth, if you do it right that actually works to combat oil whirl

    it lasted 6 months before problems were discovered. the oil used is 2190 turbine oil. i have a couple gallons of it, its similar to 10w-40 engine oil.


    anyhow, you should really not be afraid of changing the viscosity of your spindle oil.

    there are surface grinder spindles that run on water thin oil (1 cst), and have hardly a ten thousandths clearance for a 1 inch diameter shaft.. they don't require forced lubrication.


    Biggest problem with low speed lathe spindles is you can't avoid metal on metal contact (boundary lubrication) unless you change the oil. the 100 year old books should help you figure out this boundary if you know the clearance and the oil viscosity.

    for the ~100 pounds of downward thrust on the spindle bearings of my south bend 9 lathe due to the underdrive belt, that speed is on the order of maybe 20 rpm. so when there is 500 pounds of vertical upwards thrust at 40 rpm in back gear (boring bar at 1 inch diameter maxing out 1/2 hp).. i can reasonably assume the spindle oil isn't doing much good. but maybe its just barely adequate.

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    Not too bad - bore out, line with bronze, remachine screw holes

    You have some friendly wall thickness there

    Bronze can be pinned to white metal with some solid AWG 6 copper wire "dowels" - its .162" dia.

    Or even non fuming bronze brazing rod

    Fretting on back face of rear bearing lets us know lube delivery wasn't always ideal
    Last edited by johnoder; 08-10-2018 at 07:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Not too bad - bore out, line with bronze, remachine screw holes
    "Houston? We have a problem"

    John,

    As far as I can see, our man in Idaho only has the one machine tool to work with. The selfsame L&S lathe he'll have apart to do the work TO.

    We could do a new thread on farm-boy ways to work around that minor nuisance, but third-party intervention should get him back into operation with fewer hours robbed off "Day Job".

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    Indeed...

    I tend to forget shops abound with such limits on possibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "Houston? We have a problem"

    John,

    As far as I can see, our man in Idaho only has the one machine tool to work with. The selfsame L&S lathe he'll have apart to do the work TO.

    We could do a new thread on farm-boy ways to work around that minor nuisance, but third-party intervention should get him back into operation with fewer hours robbed off "Day Job".

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    I see no need to replace the bearings on the lathe. If you have .0025" clearance in the bearings just machine or file .003" off of the cap and scrape the bearing to fit the shaft. A couple of hours of work and you will be back in business. Babbitt scrapes easily and there are videos on Youtube on how to scrape a bearing. Or you could put a .002" shim under the bottom shell to bring it back up and go back to work.

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    If my first lathe bearings/spindle looked that good, I would take pictures of it.
    You are in an awkward position..................almost too good to mess with, but not quite. I would be inclined to shim it too.

    Seize the opportunity to make a set of bronze bearings to have on hand for later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enginebill View Post
    I see no need to replace the bearings on the lathe. If you have .0025" clearance in the bearings just machine or file .003" off of the cap and scrape the bearing to fit the shaft. A couple of hours of work and you will be back in business. Babbitt scrapes easily and there are videos on Youtube on how to scrape a bearing. Or you could put a .002" shim under the bottom shell to bring it back up and go back to work.
    ^^^ THIS ^^^ or variations on the theme. Intentional "lobing" can be righteous on this type of bearing, too.

    Not only is it potentially lower downtime and near-zero out-of-pocket CASH, there are no better options ANYWAY, given there are no other machines with which to make much of anything under his roof.

    Some one on PM will have "current" experience. I am not he by.. over fifty years, now.

    Roller bearings on even the oldest and most humble spindles here. WTH. six or eight of my DOORS have ball-bearing hinges (commercial 90-minute fire-rated).


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    actually I have access to another lathe thats about 8 years old but its a cough, cough, grizzly so I dont talk about it here. I use it when Im playing with gun stuff need to take a .100 off well thats 10 passes. its totally babied. I wanted to make sure I could use it, and it would turn that large of a chunk of material. I had the bronze material thrown on another order I was already was making. If I dont use it here I will use it somewhere. I think I will shim it first like everyone is saying and see what happens but I think Im going to try making some new ones for the experience 300.00 and time into this lathe thats already anchored to the floor that I know sort of how to run versus buying something, shipping it here then relearning another old piece of equipment thats still not my dream lathe.
    so on the slitting the new bearings should that be done before or after boring it out ? I could cut outside to size, rough it in on the inside, drill my holes through, so it can be bolted back together, then slit it, install some shims, then finish turning it. is that kind of the steps or am I missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    actually I have access to another lathe thats about 8 years old but its a cough, cough, grizzly so I dont talk about it here. I use it when Im playing with gun stuff need to take a .100 off well thats 10 passes. its totally babied. I wanted to make sure I could use it, and it would turn that large of a chunk of material. I had the bronze material thrown on another order I was already was making. If I dont use it here I will use it somewhere. I think I will shim it first like everyone is saying and see what happens but I think Im going to try making some new ones for the experience 300.00 and time into this lathe thats already anchored to the floor that I know sort of how to run versus buying something, shipping it here then relearning another old piece of equipment thats still not my dream lathe.
    so on the slitting the new bearings should that be done before or after boring it out ? I could cut outside to size, rough it in on the inside, drill my holes through, so it can be bolted back together, then slit it, install some shims, then finish turning it. is that kind of the steps or am I missing something?
    Personally? I'd detergent strip, then electro-strip the (mostly Tin) Babbitt, mask the iron shells, then see if I couldn't silver plate it back to size over many days at around a Volt and a half, DC, fit it, flash plate it with Indium.

    The metals involved already have a positive history of playing well-enough together. In bearings, even.

    Extract:

    Indium is a very soft silver colored metal with a melting point of 311°F. An early important application of this material was developed during the Second World War. A layer of indium over an electroplated silver-lead alloy made an extremely fine bearing for certain types of airplane engine parts.
    Indium Plating

    Silver "shrink compensating" is about as old as Farsi in copying a jewelry item to make new molds that will reproduce the size of the item being copied after THEIR casting shrinks.

    The challenge would be to research a plating chemistry that did not create a problem.

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    Beer can time.

    Beer can cuts well with a scissors and is good size for under bearing shim.

    Shim both top and bottom under existing bearings and make a pair of spacer shims and test fit.

    Costs nothing but time.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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