Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill going to Tuckahoe . . .
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  1. #1
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    Default Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill going to Tuckahoe . . .

    Our negotiations are complete -- the Lucas will be hauled to the 4,000 sq. ft. Machine Tool Museum at Tuckahoe. I am declaring this to be the first haul for the Antique Machinery Haulers' Group. Even though the group is not finished with bylaws and election of officers, this haul is being organized by four of the group's charter members. johnoder gets credit for providing his "Needs Saving" thread which provided the venue for DaveKamp's post starting this process. (Dave is both finder and hauler in this operation.) Jeff_G and Archie Cheda are the PM/Tuckahoe members that are receiving the machine. (I think we have a lot more work to do -- I'll keep a photographic record of our progress.)

    Here are the first pics, with more to come:

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v3...e%20R%20Lucas/
    Last edited by Archie Cheda; 07-08-2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Remove unauthorized material . . .

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    Cool. My dad worked for Lucas for awhile in the '50's.

    Regards.

    Finegrain

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    Cool. I ran a 4" Lucas when I worked at Columbus McKinnon.

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    I have one of those, it's even the same color.

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    First, many thanks to Gary for generously donating the Lucas to Tuckahoe, to Archie for organizing the transport network, and to Dave, who will be doing the move.

    The folks at Lucas Precision have been very helpful in providing information. This machine, serial number 21-9-6, was shipped in 1912 and spent most of its life in the Detroit area. Weight is approximately 7000#.

    Jeff

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    Ran a G&L about that size once- it was fun.
    Andy

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    Default Time to wake up this sleeping thread . . .

    Thanks to jimboggs offer to help out moving the Lucas HBM to Tuckahoe, it will be there soon. Jim is making another trip to RI with his former U-haul truck and will be empty going east.

    There is quite a bit of uncertainty about the weight of this machine, so we are making certain that we can keep Jim legal. His net weight capability is around 5,500# and by strange coincidence, the current owner and donor of the Lucas feels that it is only 5,500#. Before you all protest this weight, please understand that is his opinion based on being able to easily lift it with his 5,500#-rated forklift, so we all know it is probably heavier -- we just do not know how much heavier. The generally-agreed on weight seems to be around 7,000#. Jim will be bringing along his trailer which can handle 1,500# of parts and I will be joining him with my pickup which can also handle 1,500#. There is a scale only a few miles from the machine's location and we will remove whatever it takes to keep Jim under his 18,000# GVWR. Tips from anyone who has pulled (heavy) parts off a HBM will be appreciated. I have a plan in mind that I will post a bit later.

    Jim's travel plans are to leave IA on August 2nd, so I have made motel reservations for us with this in mind. We are planning on getting the Lucas to Tuckahoe by August 6th. If anyone is sufficiently near to where this machine is located about 20 miles due east of Kankakek, IL, and is free next Tuesday or Wednesday, pm me and you can join the fun.

    I will be documenting this process and will try to update it as we go.

    P.S.: The finder of this machine is DaveKamp, the representative of the adoptor is Jeff_G, and the haulers are jimboggs & myself, all members of the Antique Machinery Hauler's Group, so it is pretty clearly our haul.
    Last edited by Archie Cheda; 08-27-2008 at 06:49 PM. Reason: wording change . . .

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    Default Lucas on board & ready to roll . . .

    I arrived two days ago and pulled the outboard bearing support off the Lucas. Its vertical lead-screw is bevel gear driven, so it was only a matter of four large bolts and it lifted right off (with the help of a forklift). Then I removed the table, which was only a matter of removing the lead-screw and the square-way gibs. (Interesting note: the factory formed over the last thread on the lead-screw so that the table would not be run off the saddle -- there are slip-clutches in the feed drive, so the bent screw acted as a simple safety stop, even under power feed.) By mid-day, I had at least 1,500# in my truck-bed, which is its limit. Later that day, jimboggs rolled in with his truck and light trailer. His truck had a fresh tare weight of slightly less than 14,000# and a fixed GVWR of 18,000#. The factory number for the Lucas was 7,000#, so we now had a 5,500# machine and only 4,000# net load capacity.

    This morning we disconnected the counterweight that lives inside the column and lifted the Lucas off its counterweight. It is some 10 inches square and 30 inches long. That is 3,000 cubic inches of cast iron, or around 800#. We also pulled off the saddle and some 1.5" drive shafting and a few 100# parts. We than loaded what was left of the Lucas into Jim's truck and went to a scale. It weighed in at 17,560# including Jim, but with an empty gas tank. Bottom line, we are comfortably under our maximum gross weight limit, even when gassed up. The two heaviest parts we took off today are on Jim's trailer and it is loaded, but not overloaded. Tongue weight is less than 150#.

    The Lucas is blocked and strapped in Jim's former U-Haul truck. The truck really does not (yet) have adequate hard points, but the center of gravity is low and we will be on smooth interstates most of the way.

    I have taken pics and will post them later tonight if possible, but now we are off to do a little shopping for stuff Jim needs for his trip to RI and back to IA.

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    Default The Lucas HBM is in MD . . .

    . . . and I am home after five days on the road. Jim decided to roll on to the eastern shore of the Chesapeake to beat the storm (Hanna). The unloading may well be delayed a day if the wind and rain show up as expected on Saturday.

    The trip from IL to MD went very well. We used the turnpikes to avoid all the hills in southern OH, WV, and western MD. It seemed that there were few if any weigh stations -- is this typical of all the toll roads in the various states?

    Now -- the pics:



    The heavy items pictured above are the table and outboard bearing support -- some 700#. Also is the boring spindle extension, which is really nice to have included. (I am open to correct nomenclature suggestions). There was more to come -- this was what I removed in the first two hours.



    Above is a test lift with Gary Romanetti's crane. The balance point was about right with the saddle still in place. The saddle and the 800# counterweight in the column were removed the next morning before we loaded. (The weight is designed to be removed out of the bottom of the machine -- we used Gary's forklift to lift the machine off the disconnected counterweight because the chain blocked the path of the weight.) The balance point moved a bit toward the column. We did the actual lift with the chain choked up against the top of the quill and the chain runs through an access hole the back of the base, so it was very stable against any tendency to roll.



    Same test lift from another angle.



    Above is the machine in jimbogg's truck. We got too busy to take pics during the actual loading, but the crane was used to lift the machine from one side and then the truck was backed up around/under the light end of the machine with the crane on one side. The fork lift was used to support the heavy end of the machine and skates (machinery rollers) were put under the end of the machine that was inside the truck. Then the forklift eased the machine into the truck. One the Lucas was inside the truck, four skates allowed moving it so that its weight was ahead of the rear axle by a foot or so. We then blocked the machine against forward motion with two 4x4's and strapped it off. (Note that strapping was not a great option in this type of truck -- Jim plans on adding some real hard points.)



    Above is the counterweight and saddle on Jim's trailer. Nothing in either truck or the trailer moved during the 700 miles we traveled over the last two days. Jim still faces the storm and Jeff_G is working on coordinating the unloading.
    Last edited by johnoder; 07-19-2010 at 08:13 PM. Reason: add pics . . .

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    Default Lots of work

    Great efforts there, lots of work. Thanks for the photos of how a "real" iron retrieval is done.

    Mine is usually done in the back of a Tacoma, to the point where perceived spring travel is well, ..... just in the tires. JimB

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    Default Spring travel ? ? ?

    jimboggs' former U-haul truck was comfortably (a few 100#) under its GVWR of 18,000# but the rear springs were sitting on the snubbers and the fronts were not far away. Worked OK on the interstate, but Jim is planning on installing all new springs.

    I did not mind the disassembly because it would have to be done anyway during the restoration of the machine. I kept all the loose parts at my place so I can work on them here rather than to be dragging them back & forth between here & Tuckahoe.

    I still need to to a lot of surveying, but the Lucas is missing the three pinions on its feed tumbler gears. It has power feed on all three (four, counting quill), but the operator has to walk to the far left of the machine to reverse the feed, the same way you would on an old-style lathe. The missing tumblers were removed (& lost) when someone was investigating the broken teeth on a bevel gear right below them, so there is some repair work to do. The tumblers are small (relatively) spur gears, so replicating them will not be too much work. A lot of stuff has to be freed up as the Lucas was outside for a year or so. The good side is that the paint will be easy to strip.

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    Interesting haul, Archie. Glad you made it thru and home safely.

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    Default Unloading day . . .

    Last I heard from Jim he was settled into a motel five or ten miles from Tuckahoe, ahead of the storm and ready to ride it out. Jim and Jeff_G should be unloading the main machine today, so we should get a report. I unloaded the parts that were on my truck and weighed them as I put them onto a couple of pallets. I will work on them at my place before I take them to Tuckahoe.

    Here are the actual weights for future reference, including Jim's load (the main body is what is there after the other parts were removed):

    Code:
    Main body of machine:		3,700#
    Outboard support bearing tower:	  350#
    Table (20"x48"):		  525#
    Saddle:				  280#
    Misc shafts & gibs:		  335#
    Counterweight:			  800#
    
    Total:				5,990#
    I would call the total for the Lucas as 6,000#. The 7,000# number probably included all the missing cranks, electric motor, standard accessories, and crating. This machine (before removing parts) was easily picked up with a CAT forklift rated at 6,000#.

  14. #14
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    Talking Lucas has arrived!

    Sunday morning, Dave Welser and Jeff Greenblatt from Tuckahoe met Jim and unloaded the Lucas. We lag-bolted it to a couple of 4x6s, backed up to the loading dock, and pulled it out with the forklift. As it emerged, we put pipe rollers underneath until completely clear of the dock, then picked it up. Our 4K-rated IH forklift needed some live ballast on the back end to keep the wheels on the ground, but we "got 'er done". The Lucas is now tarped and under cover in the pavillion. We'll probably move it into the museum next Saturday, after we rearrange a couple of the machines that are already in there.

    More pictures next week.

    Thanks again to Gary Romanetto who donated the machine, and to Jim and Archie for transport!

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    Default Just to give you an idea....

    ...of the costs involved for a deal like this.

    Hi All,

    I sat down today and totaled up my costs for moving machine(s) and so on. Fuel for the Ia./Maryland segment totaled $910.72. Archie graciously paid for room, while I paid for food, and I definitely got the better end of the deal.
    Total cost of food for my entire trip only came to $247.86 (Archie was a cheap date ), and that includes two "big" meals with friends and family that had nothing to do with machine transport other than putting me in close enough proximity to be able to enjoy doing so. Had this been just a straight load out/empty back type of affair, I expect fuel would have been less than $1,500 or maybe a little more. I have no idea what Archie was paying a night for the rooms, but figure $100 a night and that would get you up to about $2,100 assuming 3 days out and 3 back. All in all, cost to move the Lucas for me, was less than a fifth of my total cost of the entire second trip. If you put it against what it cost me for my entire move of myself and my machines it pales into insignificance. The only real cost was in time and even that was only a couple of extra days.

    Basically this should give everyone a good idea of actual costs and if it would be easier to hire out or not. I should also mention I was reimbursed for $200 of my fuel, so in the end my "real" cost for moving the Lucas was only $710 or so plus tolls (again tolls for the entire trip were $136.10, and part of that was a $18.75 whopper for the Tappan Zee which doesn't figure in to Lucas at all). In the end I'm guessing Archie's/Tuckahoe's end cost them maybe a $1,500 or a little more, which makes the entire move go about $2,250 or $2,500 or so? Of course the big ? here would be what would a rigger have cost us if we hadn't done that part ourselves, which would have been necessary had we hired out a hauler (I'm assuming Mr. Romanetto would not have loaded completely for free, though he was extremely gracious in helping us to load)plus it would have had to been crated or at least skidded.

    Anyways that is some of the nitty gritty behind the haul in terms of costs and hopefully will be of some help to someone else considering a move like this. There was a lot more invested in haul, like in truck prep before I ever left, but this had to be done irregardless. Had a lot of fun doing it and was nice to meet some of the faces behind the names and see Tuckahoe of course.

    Best,
    Jim

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    Default A rough survey report on the Lucas . . .

    Yesterday I finished getting the Lucas into small enough parts to move around & work on. I plan on doing a total disassembly rebuild, so the labor in IL and at Tuckahoe taking it apart would have had been to have been invested at some point. I was lucky that the five different days that I worked on this machine outdoors were nice-weather days. I am going to do all the work in my own shop rather than at Tuckahoe -- my shop is heated and this is clearly going to take all winter. I intend to do some minimal scraping of all the ways -- as I will explain below, this will not be a large amount of work.

    In IL I noticed the tumbler gears on the feed-reverse were missing and had probably been removed to expose the broken tooth (two, actually) on one of the main spindle drive bevel gears. This could have been the result of a crash, or the gears eating a big chip. The main gear-box has to be completely disassembled to remove this gear, so I can see why no-one ever got around to doing a repair. As I took the Lucas apart, it was obvious that while the slides had some rust on them from exposure to the elements, they were actually in pretty good shape for a 96-year-old machine tool. I now think the reason for this good condition is that this machine has been out of operation for many decades -- I suspect that Gary was not the first owner to not operate the machine before passing it on.

    The main bed ways of the machine appeared to be in the the worst condition, so I did some measuring. These rectangular ways have a flange front & rear that provides a clamping surface. Unless the operator does a lot of "driving with the brakes on", the lower surface should not be worn. I measured the corners at the end of the machine that were under the outboard bearing base and should not be worn -- they measured 1.250", a nice even number. The worse wear, both front and rear was only .0015", so I do not think I will even use a power scraper that one of my Tuckahoe cohorts could lend me. The main reason I will be scraping all way surfaces is to remove rust and refine the surface a bit.

    I am sorry that I did not take a lot of pictures -- I was working outside under pretty dirty conditions so I did not want to stop and clean up for picture-taking. I do intend to document the interesting points of the whole re-assembly process. I now have everything in my shop except the main bed and column castings which should weigh in around 2,300# which my F-350 and forklift can handle. Next trip to Tuckahoe, I will bring back the bed & column. I will remove the column to make the scraping a bit easier. It is bolted onto the base with four huge bolts and two large taper pins provide a good means to replace it in exactly the same position. As soon as I get base by itself, I will start the cleaning/scraping process and will post pics as I go along. First I will do the base and then (after fitting the saddle) I will haul it to Tuckahoe. As each sub-assembly is ready I can haul it in my little truck and re-assemble the machine at Tuckahoe without having to haul the whole 6,000# in one load.

    The spindle head is interesting: The quill is only two feet long, with two feet of rack providing the linear feed motion. There is a spindle collar that is a hardened piece of steel with a bore that carries the 2-3/4" spindle which is six feet long -- necked down to about 1-1/4" for the 2-foot portion that goes through the quill. The exterior of the spindle collar has two bearing journals -- the "work" end is a tapered conical journal and the "back" end is a plain cylindrical journal. Both of these run in bronze bushings. The tapered bearing has a thrust surface at the big end and is shim-adjusted to give correct radial and axial clearance -- it is the same system that many mill spindles used 100 years ago. The "back" end plain cylindrical journal bearing has a bronze bushing that has an external taper so that adjustments may be made by screw-collar to get the desired clearance. This system amuses me because the adjustment of one end requires a lot of disassembly and fussing, while the other is quit simple. Everything on the Lucas spindle is in pretty good shape -- only the tapered journal has any corrosion and that is minor.

    Stay tuned -- I hope to be posting a few pics a week for the next six months . . .

  17. #17
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    Default Disassembly is over, now the work begins . . .

    I got all the parts of the Lucas hauled to my shop so I can work more often than Tuckahoe's sort-of weekly Saturday work parties. Here is the bare bed casting which is my first & largest sub-project:



    The only thing I left at Tuckahoe is the 800# cast iron counterweight. Here is the rest of the Lucas (less shafts, lead-screws, & spindle) on three pallets:



    P.S.: I have learned a bit more about the Lucas feeds: The feed gearbox has a pair of tumbler gears on the output side and this provides power feeds to the spindle/quill, the platen (table motion on the saddle, perpendicular to the bed ways), and the head (up & down). There is no power feed provision at all on the long lead-screw that moves the saddle along the bed ways -- hand feed only.

    The tumbler gears that are missing (along with the larger gear they drive), are for a rapid (faster than power feed rate) of the drill head (& the outboard bearing) vertically. The machine can be fully operational without this rapid feed -- it just makes setting up jobs faster. This will be the last area on the Lucas that I need to address.
    Last edited by johnoder; 07-19-2010 at 08:19 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default What!!!!

    Archie!!,

    You hauled it all back to your house!!?? I could of left them there for you!

    Glad to see you've tackled her full force so soon. Thanks for the updates and pix thereof.

    Best,
    Jim

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    Default Doing it the "hard" way . . .

    Jim (& anyone else that is puzzled),

    I also feel a bit foolish -- the haul of the base (~2,000#) yesterday cost me around $80 in fuel. (I live 111 miles from Tucakhoe.) Everything else gets hauled in the back of my wife's GMC S-15 on trips I am already making to Tuckahoe for a work party. The problem was that I had only a 2,000# forklift to unload a 4,000# machine -- and that would have included getting it out of a box truck long ways. We loaded it in IL with a mobil crane and a 6,000# forklift, either one of which could pick up the whole machine. At Tuckahoe it was drug out onto a loading dock, something which I wish I had at my shop.

    The disassembly that reduced the machine to what I could haul & unload easily and safely took more time than I could tie up Jim on his trip to RI & back to IA. Doing it this way was a lot safer and enjoyable even if it took me more time & $$$.

    While the disassembly went smoothly, there were a number of things that would have been frustrating if I had been under pressure. For example: If the machine was brand new, all it would have taken to remove the spindle would have been to remove a double-nut pair from the left end of the spindle and it would have then slid to the right out of the quill and the spindle collar. After decades of rotation of the spindle the steel & bronze thrust washers had managed to turn up a burr on the spindle shaft so that when this removal method was attempted the washers cocked & jammed, preventing removal. I disassembled the quill housing off of the head of the machine -- then I could dress down the burr with a file and easily remove the spindle. If force had been used to get this apart in a hurry, there would have been damage to the thrust washers.

    I could have worked on it a Tuckahoe with the whole gang, but everyone seems to be involved in other tasks that have priority and I wanted to put the Lucas on a fast track -- a couple of Saturdays a month would not have been enough time to get it finished in time for the next show in July. The lure of my heated shop was the final word . . .

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    Default

    the usual offer stands, archie, if ya need grunt-work help wire-wheeling etc don't hesitate to call


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