Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill going to Tuckahoe . . . - Page 17
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  1. #321
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    Looks good Archie.. other than gear manufacture and such what more needs to be done ?
    Stay safe
    Calvin

  2. #322
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    Default On a new page . . .

    Calvin,

    Here are the major items I have on my list:

    Check alignments -- make corrections as necessary.
    Install platen (table) lead-screw.
    Mechanical overhaul of feed gear-box -- hopefully nothing too exciting.
    Fabricate miter gear pair. (Still working on using NC . . .)
    Mechanical overhaul of main gear-box -- need to make at least one gear and flip all the rest.
    CI-weld lead-screw housing & install bed lead-screw & shafting.
    Prep & paint main gear-box housing, feed gear-box, and a number of small things.
    Fabricate missing clutch lever & reassemble clutch.
    Install main gear-box on bed (at left end under quill housing).
    Install feed gear-box inside bed (under column).

    I have not yet performed a careful inspection of the feed gear-box, but it uses the same size & pitch gears as the main drive, so I do not think it will have as much wear that the gears doing all the work.

    I compared my measurements from yesterday with the gear-box and it appears that the drive key will fully engage the shaft until the last inch at the top end of the head travel. Even at the top of the head travel, there will still be at least an inch of the drive key engaged, so it appears that the shortened shaft can be used as it is.

    Archie

    P.S.: We are on a new page, so I'll post another current pic of the Lucas:



    In the background, you can see Greg and Ed hanging another countershaft.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie Cheda View Post
    John, (We were posting at the same time.)

    If the Lucas belonged to me, I would want to hard-chrome it and put in bronze bushings. This would give ideal service. As John Oder has pointed out, Lucas went to nitrided spindle-bars sometime early in the last century and pretty much eliminated all wear problems. (I presume the spindle-collars were also nitrided.)

    The Spindles were manufactured from Nitralloy and Nitrided. The Spindle Sleeve Bushings are made from Timken 52100 bearing steel.

    Jim

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    Hi Archie,

    I think I have some 1144SP on the shelf that size, and if not I know where to get a drop locally.
    The actual material used was Hy-Ten B3X which is a modified 4150 pre-heattreated.

    Jim

  5. #325
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    Default Material improvements . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Jim
    The Spindles were manufactured from Nitralloy and Nitrided. The Spindle Sleeve Bushings are made from Timken 52100 bearing steel.
    Jim,

    I'm confident that you are correct for later Lucas HBM's, but in 1912 things were a bit more primitive. The spindle bar is unhardened steel, which made cutting the slot for the key to hold MT#5 tools in the spindle a lot easier. In later models of the Lucas Model 21, there were replaceable bronze inserts in the spindle sleeve, but in 1912, the spindle bar runs directly in the spindle sleeve.

    As posted earlier in this thread, the clearances between the spindle bar and the spindle sleeve do not seem to be too bad. I need to get the project finished sometime during my lifetime, so I am assembling it with the spindle sleeve and spindle collar un-modified. If the clearances are too much to do accurate work, the spindle sleeve and spindle bar are not that difficult to remove. At that point I would consider regrinding, hard-chroming, and final grinding of both parts too the tightest operating clearance practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Jim
    The actual material used was Hy-Ten B3X which is a modified 4150 pre-heattreated.
    If you are referring to the gears, again, things were primitive in 1920 -- the broken bevel gear was made of cast iron as well as the majority of the gears in the transmission, although a few seem to be unhardened steel.

    By the 1920's Lucas seems to have made a lot of improvements in materials and design, including a "modern" rapid traverse system. If I were making a living with an HBM, I would definitely want one of these later models. For Tuckahoe purposes, I think the Model 21 will serve nicely.

    Archie
    Last edited by Archie Cheda; 08-17-2011 at 12:49 PM. Reason: add word . . .

  6. #326
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    Since I only had experience with the manufacture of replacement parts for Lucas Mills (I wasn't around in 1920) I can only speak of the materials we used for parts that were purchased as replacements. If you contacted Lucas Precision today for a replacement spindle for you Mill you would get one that is made of Nitralloy. If you were to order a replacement gear it would be made of 4150 pre-heattreated. The reason being is for better longevity than what was available on the machine originally.

    Jim




    Quote Originally Posted by Archie Cheda View Post
    Jim,

    I'm confident that you are correct for later Lucas HBM's, but in 1912 things were a bit more primitive. The spindle bar is unhardened steel, which made cutting the slot for the key to hold MT#5 tools in the spindle a lot easier. In later models of the Lucas Model 21, there were replaceable bronze inserts in the spindle sleeve, but in 1912, the spindle bar runs directly in the spindle sleeve.

    As posted earlier in this thread, the clearances between the spindle bar and the spindle sleeve do not seem to be too bad. I need to get the project finished sometime during my lifetime, so I am assembling it with the spindle sleeve and spindle collar un-modified. If the clearances are too much to do accurate work, the spindle sleeve and spindle bar are not that difficult to remove. At that point I would consider regrinding, hard-chroming, and final grinding of both parts too the tightest operating clearance practical.



    If you are referring to the gears, again, things were primitive in 1920 -- the broken bevel gear was made of cast iron as well as the majority of the gears in the transmission, although a few seem to be unhardened steel.

    By the 1920's Lucas seems to have made a lot of improvements in materials and design, including a "modern" rapid traverse system. If I were making a living with an HBM, I would definitely want one of these later models. For Tuckahoe purposes, I think the Model 21 will serve nicely.

    Archie

  7. #327
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    Default No disagreement here . . .

    Jim,

    I do not think either of us were disagreeing -- you were posting information based on your experience with Lucas replacement parts and I was posting information based on what I am finding in the original 1912 machine. I welcome your posts as they show what progress was made in materials after 1912 -- if I were going to be putting food on my table with a Lucas, I would certainly want a machine about ten years newer than the Tuckahoe Lucas.

    I do have reservations about the actual benefit gained by replacing a few gears with the better alloys while the rest remain cast iron. The ideal of replacing all the gears with the improved materials would be far beyond any reasonable measure of what the machine could earn, buying them at replacement part prices. If I thought that the Tuckahoe Lucas was going to be operated continuously, I would use our Fellows gear shaper to make all new alloy gears for the transmission instead of just making replacements for the gears that are broken.

    Upgrading the spindle and spindle sleeve would involve changing out a number of parts and while a great improvement, would probably cost an equally great price.

    Thanks again for your posts,

    Archie

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  9. #328
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    Default Buy vs make decision . . .



    Nine months back, RevetsP volunteered to try to make these gears. He is a student and this was to be a learning experience. I am a retired teacher, so I feel that such experiences in practical application of theory are very important, so I supported this effort. I had a long lead time, so there was no risk involved in going through this educational exercise. It turns out that between dealing with school, work, and life in general it was not possible to complete cutting of the actual gears, although RevetsP was successful in carrying through the project to the point of actually cutting test gears, I think in aluminum. At this point he "ran out of summer", and went off to college many miles from home and access to machine tools. I greatly appreciate his efforts and consider the educational portion of this experiment a success. I appreciate anyone who has volunteered help with this project -- whether successful or not, they have contributed in one way or another.

    With my goal of having the Lucas running in time for the Tuckahoe show next July and in time for it entering its second century, I had to go to Plan "B". After a number of visits to eBay, I learned that once you get to 3" and larger, miter gears get rare and expensive. It did not look as if five-inch gears were going to turn up, so I checked with Boston Gear. Five-inch gears were available in cast iron and steel and I got a quote from a distributor within 20 miles of me. Tuckahoe had sufficient cash to cover the purchase, but Jeff_G suggested I try Martin Sprocket. It turns out that the same local dealer also represents Martin and the price was slightly lower, so I went ahead and ordered the gears in unhardened steel. The two gears pictured arrived in two separate boxes in only a few days, one from Tennessee and one from Kansas.

    Because of the upgrade in material and the change of pressure angle from 14-1/2 to 20 degrees, I have no worry about having to deal with these gears again. The gears should be able to handle about double the horsepower of the originals and are much tougher. I do have some machining to do, mounting the feed take-off spur gear, extending the hub of the other gear, and cutting keyways. Then I will need to make a few spur gears for the main transmission and do all the machining necessary to flip the gears as discussed earlier.

    I have not been posting pics of my recent work, because it all involved cleaning and paint prep of the feed gearbox which is in fine shape because it uses gears that are the same pitch and size of the gears in the main gearbox. I'll post some pics once it is pretty.

    Archie

  10. #329
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    Default What else did you think I'd be doing on Thanksgiving ? ? ?

    I finished cleaning up and painting the feed distribution gearbox months ago, but was unable to find the shoulder screw that hold on the interlock knob. I decided that I would either find the screw or make one later, but today the gearbox would be assembled using a temporary capscrew.

    There are four possible positions of the two levers, but only three are used, allowing feed of the head (up & down the column), platen (in & out on the saddle), or spindle (in & out of the spindle sleeve). If the machine has the optional feed to move the saddle along the bed, the platen feed is engaged in the distribution box, but the engagement lever is left unengaged on the saddle and the little gearbox that ties the platen feed shaft to the saddle leads-crew is engaged.



    Lucas made no provision of any detents in the feed levers -- I am considering adding this function. The interlock mechanism between the levers is the most rudimentary form possible, but it does seem to do the job. (Its knob has a detent ball and spring, which I think are in the same place as the missing shoulder screw.) The floating shaft will reside in the column when the feed distribution box is assembled in its place on the lower front of the column.



    All these gears have to be lubed up with open gear lube before final assembly. I have to wonder if they ever saw any new grease after the factory.

  11. #330
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    Default This week's progress . . .

    I finally got the feed gearbox finished. About a month ago I bored out the six holes that the spring-loaded plungers drop into to hold the levers engaged in the proper position for the different gears. These holes were in pretty sad shape from the levers being dragged into gear so that the spring pushed the plunger over the edge of the hole in cast iron, eventually elongating the holes. I just picked up the bottom of each hole in my turret mill and used a 5/8" end mill to give me a socket to press a bushing into. I made up the bushings with a slight interference on their OD's and the plungers now engage their holes easily, but have very little play. If you look closely at the second picture, you can see the outlines of the bushings. I could have hidden them, but I decided to let them show. If I had machined the whole sector surface to blend in the bushings, I would have had to stamp in new number, so I thought leaving the old ones would be fine. It is sometimes tough to decide on how far to go in making things pretty -- I usually have opted for leaving some of the battle scars that show that the Lucas has seen action, but making things work as close to new as practical. The Lucas will be run in support of the many antique engines that are a part of the Tuckahoe Steam & Gas Association. If I machined the sector surfaces to perfection, they would soon show the same signs of use that are showing now.

    Other than cleaning and a lot of deburring, I did not have to do much to this gearbox. Lucas used the same 8DP gear size (& same width) in the feed gear train as they used in the main speed gearbox, which is next on the list and will need a lot of work. Working on the Lucas, from first disassembly, clear on through has involved a lot of deburring. All the steel parts (mostly shafts) are soft steel. In many places a gear turns on a shaft, or a shaft turns in a bushing (no ball bearings in the whole thing). After a long time, next to the wearing surface, a burr is turned up. This often made disassembly require a bit of extra "persuasion". In order to do a nice smooth job of assembly, all these burrs needed to be dealt with. I also deburred the edges of more gear teeth than I care to enumerate.

    This will be the last chance to see the gears clearly before they are coated with Mobilux EP 111 -- a black grease suitable for low-speed open gears. The bronze feed table is removable when a fresh application of grease is required.



    In the pic below, the gearbox is installed in the opening in the bed below the column -- I had to find another place for all the stuff I was storing in there. (I have to thank one of the Tuckahoe guys for the fine work on the bronze plaque -- he did a beautiful job. Sorry I do not know his name, but I know he is not a PM forum reader . . .) Also note that the Lucas' feeds are in inches per turn of the spindle -- this makes sense when doing single-point operations which would be the majority of the work done on a HBM.



    P.S.: I still need to install the four oilers -- I am putting off installing all the oilers until the end so I can order up a collection of oilers to replace the rather beat up originals. If anyone strongly wants to see their two brass & glass oil reservoirs feeding the main spindle feel free to make the offer. The ones I removed were not adjustable, could not be shut off, and, worst of all, had warped and yellowed plastic reservoirs.

  12. #331
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    Thanks Archie for posting your work.

  13. #332
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    Default What could it be ? ? ?

    Dave,

    I have been distracted from the Lucas for the last month -- getting my F-350 ready for its new owner. In a few weeks I'll share what I am trading the truck for, but for now a before & after of the truck will have to do. (Do not count one's chickens until they are hatched . . .)

    Archie
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails f350_1.jpg   f350painted.jpg  

  14. #333
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    Wow nice, you replaced the whole top of the cab.

  15. #334
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    Hows the Lucas and other Archie projects coming along?

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    Default Distractions, distractions . . .

    Dave,

    Good timing -- I am in the process of directing my full attention back to the Lucas now that I have spent the last two months, literally every day preparing my F-350 for its new owner. Everything in the truck works! I was finding that the truck & related projects (fifth-wheel trailer) were not getting done, but still diverting enough attention from my machine tool projects that nothing was getting done. The last few days I have been cleaning and organizing my shop and I intend to see if I can hit the Lucas gearbox with the same enthusiasm I put into getting the F-350 100% completed.

    In looking back at the many automotive projects I have worked on over the last 50 years, the most common pattern is that I started with a car that needed a lot of work, and about the time it was all in order, I sold it to someone else and started over again. (I doubt that I am the only one that can say this.) My machine tool projects are similar, but at least they do not have insurance, licenses, batteries, or tires . . .

    For the first time in my life, I did not sell a vehicle -- I traded it for:
    1947 14x54 American Pacemaker lathe
    1939 K&T 1H universal mill
    1930's Rivett 608
    1951 Cincinnati #2 big universal mill

    I am committed not to get distracted with these projects until the Lucas is running -- hopefully before the show at Tuckahoe in July. Once I turn my efforts to them, I'll try to start threads on those projects. I am only going to keep the first two, so if anyone is interested in the last two, contact me via private message rather than clutter up this thread.

    Archie
    Last edited by Archie Cheda; 04-01-2012 at 05:27 PM. Reason: grammar . . .

  17. #336
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    wow, 4 Quality machines. You will be busy for a while!

  18. #337
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    Default Special thanks to Finegrain . . .

    Some time back Finegrain made this gear for the Lucas, in memory of his Dad who worked at Lucas some five or six decades ago. Today I finally got around to test-assembling the gearbox and now can confirm that it fits perfecty, with a reasonable backlash and a nice smooth mesh. All I have to do is cut a keyway and drill the two holes that hold this gear to the other two in its cluster. While I have the pins that hold these three gears together, I can flip the other two, so I am getting three fresh wear surfaces. The other gears are made in pairs, so flipping them is just too much work if I want to get the Lucas running in my lifetime. (My long-range plan is to possibly make all new gears for the Lucas main gearbox once the Fellows is operational. By the way, the Fellows is sited right next to the Lucas and they will share the same countershaft -- once I get it put together.



    The next few days I will be test-assembling the gearbox and making spacers to tighten up the endplays. Then it is prepping and painting, so it will be a while before I have anything worth taking a picture of.

    Important information: this gear and others showed signs of being run out of mesh -- the reason is that the detent plungers were glued in place by a lot of dirt and dried out oil. Fixing this would take minutes, but obviously no one wanted to be bothered.

    Archie

    P.S.: A picture is worth . . . I like to think that this was not too bad a deal, but the truck is in better order than any of the machines. The big Cincinnati mill weights at least three times the weight of the little K&T. Good thing I enjoy working on trucks and machine tools.


  19. #338
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    That big Cincinnati, what model is it how much does it weigh? I know where one sits, not being used (except for a storage rack), and would love to have it. What are they worth?

    Awesome progress by the way. The thread really makes me want to restore my KT 2BS and Averbeck shaper.

    I look forward to the finished product!

  20. #339
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    beautiful job by finegrain on the gear. What machine, method did he use to make it?

  21. #340
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    The Cincinnati mill is an early dial machine. I have two estimates, 7,000# by the guy that has lifted it with a big forklift and another of over 8,000#. A lot of cast iron if you are making big chips in a hurry.


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