Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill going to Tuckahoe . . . - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default You know where I live . . .

    77ironhead,

    Any time you feel the need to get some light exercise.

  2. #22
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    Archie, I've been following your exploits with interest, one things concerns me though- If I understand you correctly the machine has no power feed in the longitudinal mode. That's very unusual, in fact in my experience it's unique. I've worked on Horizontal boring mills from all over the world and every one has had power feed in the three usual modes plus power feed on the spindle ( and facing slide if one is fitted ). Maybe a vital element of the feed box is missing. Best wishes Tyrone.

  3. #23
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    Default Missing feed ? ? ?

    Tyrone,

    I have studied the Lucas pretty carefully as I disassembled it and do not see any direct provision for a longitudinal feed, nor any missing parts in the area where they would be necessary to "bridge the gap". The longitudinal lead-screw (feed-screw?) can be driven directly by putting the hand crank on its right end, or through a pair of bevel gears at the left end, with the same crank. The box that carries the bevel gears clearly has no room for any other drive provision.

    The two feed levers have a total of three positions with a rudimentary interlock. The feed lever positions are labeled "spindle", "platen", & "head". There is a dog-clutch and actuating lever on the saddle that engages and disengages the platen drive bevel gear. The shaft that drives the platen runs the whole length of the bed centrally and the front-mounted lead-screw that moves the saddle longitudinally are parallel and are both carried out the right hand end of the machine where they are squared off to allow the hand crank to be installed.

    If the dog-clutch in the saddle were left free and a simple pair of sprockets w/chain were used to allow the feed shaft to drive the lead-screw, then the Lucas would have power longitudinal feed. There is no evidence that this was done on this machine, but it could have been a factory option. This is a small HBM, so it may not have had all the features that bigger machines had. It is also dates from 1912, so may not have been as well-developed as later machines. Thanks for your interest.

    UPDATE: Yesterday I got all the flakey paint off with a scraper and am awaiting delivery of my new needle-scaler to remove the more tenacious patches of paint. I cleaned out the interior of the bed which has three upper cover plates that were with the machine. The back of the bed has three ports with eight tapped holes that were for securing the missing cover plates -- there is a similar port on the right side of the bed. I wonder if there was an option for coolant/lubricant? There is no sign that this was ever the case for this machine. I will make up some sheet metal covers for cosmetic purposes.

    Today I cleaned up the bed ways, de-rusting them with naval jelly. They show some galling, but not that much considering the age of the machine. With everything clean, the flanges (front & rear) show a worst-case variation of thickness of .002". This machine could probably to pretty good work as this is .002" in five feet. I still plan on doing some scraping because I need the practice and it will improve the machine in both practical and cosmetic terms.

  4. #24
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    Thanks for the very prompt and detailed reply Archie, it's a real mystery. If you were going to fit power feeds to a boring mill the one that would get used the most would probably be the longitudinal axis and then the transverse axis. Given the limitations of the tooling at the time you would need power feed on the vertical axis the least. Can you imagine line boring by hand ? I can't. Maybe the designers envisaged the travelling spindle feed taking care of the longitudinal axis ? Best Wishes Tyrone

  5. #25
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    Default Still looking for the missing feed ? ? ?

    Tyrone,

    I have not made any chips with a HBM, but I did get to "cut air" with one in 1974 and wanted to have a bit more exposure to one of these old workhorses since then. Now I get to restore and run this one at Tuckahoe.

    I do not have the literature with all the factory numbers -- it is in the Tuckahoe library and I have not had a chance to make a copy yet. From what I remember, the total longitudinal feed travel is barely more than the spindle travel (barely two feet). For most drilling operations I would think the power spindle feed would suffice. For boring/line boring I would think the spindle feed would suffice, with some manual repositioning of the longitudinal position. (By the way, anyone trying to be productive would, of course, want not only power feed, but rapid traverse in all possible directions. This machine is a history piece, so I have to preserve it the way it was designed. It will be used to support the various engines at Tuckahoe, so it will get some work, but efficiency will not be be an issue.)

    For milling, the Lucas has the two necessary power feeds for face milling vertically or horizontally. Given this logic, it sort of made sense to me that the longitudinal direction could be dispensed with. Let me know if there are operations that would require power longitudinal feed.

    P.S.: Now all I need is someone to show me that the factory did use the means of providing a longitudinal power feed that I proposed in my earlier post. Then I can make a clone of it without getting a lot of flack for not being original. (Actually, I think I can make something up that will just slip on the two squared ends of the shafts at the right end of the machine.)

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    Mine has such a drive on it, but using 4 gears instead of a chain. It has a hub that you moved in and out to engage and disengage the drive. It is fabricated (no cast pieces), but very well done; by whom I don't know. It also has coolant trays and an electric motor conversion. Other than that it appears identical to this machine.

    Where did you find the serial #? My book says it should be on the brass name/speed plate and near the left end of the front way, but I'm not finding one either place.

  7. #27
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    Default Very interesting . . .

    rlbleeker,

    The serial number is on the vertical face of the front bed way at the left end -- see pic:



    I would be very interested in pictures of your whole machine and especially details of the longitudinal drive.

    Starting the job:



    After about a half-hour of getting warmed up:



    Here is a picture of some marks that are consistent along the entire upper bed way surface:



    The marks are much deeper than the .002" of wear, so they are still quite prominent. I have to presume that they are for oil retention -- anyone have a better explanation?

    I scraped enough today to remove all the material that is above the .001" level. I intend to scrape "straight down" until the entire upper surface is within .0025" of the original plain. So far, spotting with my almost-big-enough surface plate is going well, with the surface staying pretty flat, even though I am only doing (careful) rough scraping.
    Last edited by johnoder; 07-19-2010 at 08:20 PM.

  8. #28
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    hi archie,
    what are you using to keep the ways straight and in the same plane??

    dt

  9. #29
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    Default Spotting tools . . .

    dt,

    I am using the surface plate visible upside-down on the ways in two of the pictures. It does not quite span the whole width of both ways, but I am working on only one side per spotting, alternating back & forth, so it is working fine. I also have the unworn lower clamping surface of the ways as a reference -- the unworn portion measured 1.250" and the whole thing should come in flat and level at 1.248", although I may go a little deeper for cosmetic purposes. This is the reference plane I used to establish how little wear the machine had. I will be adding a 4-foot straight-edge to double-check things the long direction as I go along, but first I am working on the un-worn end of the bed where the most metal needs to be removed. Mostly I am keeping my scraping as even as possible because the ways are pretty flat front-to-rear. The surface plate sits firmly (without rocking) everywhere I place it on the ways and the high spots are pretty well distributed when I spot it with Prussian Blue.

    This machine did not absolutely need to be scraped, but I think I can improve it in both utility and appearance -- appearance being more important to the large number of people that will see the machine in its museum home. It should be more than adequate for the occasional cylinder boring or main bearing align boring in its role of support at Tuckahoe.
    Last edited by Archie Cheda; 10-07-2008 at 11:44 PM. Reason: add a few words . . .

  10. #30
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    The marks appear to be all that is left of the "flaking" - where the butt of the scraper is held against the shoulder, and the blade, one corner down, is forced to jump a little when you bang the scraper shank with your closed fist. The accompanying half moon created by the scraper pivoting a bit on the corner is worn away.

    John Oder

  11. #31
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    Default Flaking . . .

    John,

    I agree that it is flaking, but it is not what is left after wear. The unworn portions have pretty much the same look. The linear "scratches" are well over .002" deep as they look the same in worn and unworn areas.

    I am curious about the technique used, although I will not need to do it on these ways as the entire surface looks like the sample.

  12. #32
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    thanks for the reply archie

  13. #33
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    Hi Archie, In answer to your question about the longitudinal power feed, most Hor bors this side of the pond came with a facing slide , either integral to the design of the machine or a bolt on version. This enables you to face in/out radially and mount boring bar holders much bigger than those that can be mounted in the spindle nose. Obviously in the latter example a powered long traverse then becomes a must. I hope you don't take this the wrong way but without a facing slide of some description the " Lucas" type machine is really a drilling, tapping and milling machine with the ability to do small boring jobs. Best wishes Tyrone.

  14. #34
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    Default Facing slide ? ? ?

    Thanks, Tyrone,

    I am unaware of the concept of "facing slide" -- can you post a picture of one or a link to the same?

    In my ignorance, I thought that "a drilling, tapping and milling machine with the ability to do small boring jobs" would do what we are likely to run across supporting the engines at Tuckahoe. The sales pic of this Lucas shows about a 12" diameter face mill bolted to the four holes tapped in the spindle collar end, with the spindle sliding right through its hollow center. I intend to install a similar face mill I have in the same manner, after some modification to suit.

    P.S.: To all, I did not scrape today -- I am on an every other day plan so that my muscles do not get to much exercise without enough regeneration time. Yesterday was not too bad (muscle-wise) and I removed about one sixth of the metal I plan on removing from the upper bed way surfaces.

  15. #35
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    Thanks Archie, I'm sorry if you think I'm slighting the " Lucas" machine, that was not my intention. I'm a klutz at posting stuff on the site but if you search for " Did anyone ever make a HBM smaller than the KTM autometric " on the new general site you will find some interesting stuff. On page one under "Spud's" contribution you will see a photo of a small cream coloured " Kearns " HBM with a built in facing slide.
    What in the photo may look like a chuck is a revolving housing carrying a tee-slotted centre slide, the slide can be moved in or out either by hand or under power feed whilst the housing is revolving. You can bolt various turning type tool holders to the tee-slotted slide and therefore bore and face large diameters relative to the small size of the machine. The one in the photo is only a small example ( say 12" to 15" in diameter) , some of the bigger machines I worked on had facing slides 36" in diameter capable of facing up to 60" to 70" areas depending on tooling. Best Wishes Tyrone.

  16. #36
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    Default No need for apologies . . .

    Tyrone,

    I had taken no offense -- I was (lamely) trying to poke fun at what it means to have a "small" HBM that cannot really do what can be done what a big lathe or big mill will do in a similar foot-print. (I still think this Lucas will be a great asset to the museum and a fun machine to operate while doing support functions for the Tuckahoe engines. Who wants to bore cylinders on a lathe?)

    Thanks for the tip -- I had fun looking at the pics and think I now understand the "facing slide". I wonder if they date back as far as 1912?

    I have a small "boring/facing head for my turret mill, so I am familiar with the concept. Is there any reason why I cannot mount a similar unit in the MT#5 spindle socket? Alternatively, I would think I could mount such an accessory on my spindle collar? (And thus, as you stated, would really appreciate a powered longitudinal feed. Fortunately rlbleeker has come to my rescue with his information -- I hope he can post some pictures of his Lucas and its powered longitudinal feed.)

  17. #37
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    AC - my very early forties manual ( I once owned 41-21-20. ) talks about the plain bearing spindles with the tapered front journal, etc. If you need this scanned just say so.

    John Oder

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    Default Great ! ! !

    John,

    I would really appreciate it if you could scan the manual. I'll send you my email address via private message.

    I enjoyed figuring out the puzzle while taking it apart, but perhaps the manual will help me put it back together properly.

    Thanks.

  19. #39
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    Scans emailed this AM

    John Oder

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    Default The gift that keeps on giving . . .

    John, Thanks for the scans on the spindle bearing system. I now know that what I have been describing as the "spindle collar" is referred to as the "spindle sleeve", at least in Lucas manuals. I think that the spindle bearing area is the only part of the machine that has any sort of exotic nature. The rest of the Lucas seems to be dead simple.

    Tyrone & rlbleeker, Thanks for your contributions. I was planning on making a list of the normal work-holding accessories, but my list is getting longer. I now plan on making:

    o A swivel table. The one pictured in the Lucas literature seems to have no drive system at all and I think I could clone one by working over a large lathe face-plate. Even this simple level of rotary table will allow accurate indexing about a vertical axis and allow this HBM to operate on all four sides of a rectangular part (or any other increment for that matter).

    o A face mill with HSS cutter inserts to mount on the spindle sleeve. I already have one (~8") I can modify to suit the Lucas spindle sleeve. If anyone has a big one (~12") and wants to donate it to Tuckahoe, it would be appreciated.

    o A work rest -- likely to be mostly hardwood, with CI at the top surface.

    o A facing slide to mount on the spindle sleeve. For an add-on accessory, is there any problem with modeling this on a common boring/facing mill accessory, scaled up to handle facing large engine cylinders?

    o A longitudinal drive system that can be easily added when practical work is being done and removed when purists want to see an original machine. I may even just use a small timing belt and two cog-wheels with square holes that fit the squared shafts.

    Inputs and additions to this list would be appreciated, but I think this project will have a long life. I do hope to have the majority of the Lucas back in one piece in time for the next show at Tuckahoe in July 2009, even if it is not fully operational.

    P.S.: Here is the illustration I have been referring to (reduced resolution to keep things moving):



    I am missing the entire clutch throw-in lever & fork. The lever is easy, but the CI pivot and fork are things I could use some details on.
    Last edited by johnoder; 07-19-2010 at 08:23 PM.


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