Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill going to Tuckahoe . . . - Page 20
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  1. #381
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    Just a thought Archie, the photo doesn't reveal wether you had any stops in the tee slots to prevent the job pushing backwards under the tool forces. It's always wise to prevent any movement before it happens. Regards Tyrone.

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  3. #382
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    Default A good tip . . .

    Tyrone,

    Thanks for the tip. The amount of mill work I have done mounted directly mounted to the table is far, far less than yours. In this case the cuts were very light and it took a lot of passes to clean up the rough, drafted end of the casting, which was good for letting me get used to running the Lucas in milling mode. When I mount the work on the freshly milled surface to do the boring, I'll throw in a couple of toe clamps as stops if I can work out the geometry. I think I'll glue a couple of pieces of sand-paper together to improve the grip between the table and the work. I will probably be clamping the work with a couple of straps clamps on top with heel blocks. At Tuckahoe we have a lot of different strap clamps and such, but they are in a wide variety of sizes and not very organized.

    Thanks,

    Archie

  4. #383
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    No problem Archie. I've always used slot stops on work like that, you just push the work up to the slot stops and it should be square to the table. Saves on set up time. If you're really cautious you can snug papers up between job and work, if you can move the papers your job has moved ! The slot stops we used were hardened and ground, a bit like a big inverted tee nut, they were a tap in fit to the slots in the table, also they were counter bored for cap head screws to bolt them into the tee nuts in the tee slots to stop them moving. They're the best type but I've also seen guys just use pieces of bar, say 4" x 4" ground to fit the tee slots in the table and again just tapped in place.
    As you know I've worked on a few Hor bores over the years and I worked with some really top notch operators, they taught me all I know about set ups. All the best, Tyrone.

  5. #384
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    Default One more item for the tooling list . . .

    Tyrone,

    Thanks again -- I'll get ambitious and post a list of planned tooling so you and others can add to it. I plan on making long T-nuts for the Lucas table because earlier operators did some damage to the surfaces where the T-nuts seat. I will be making the T-nuts longer than normal to bridge across the missing iron. The "slot stops" you describe could be easily made at the same time. The small number of jobs that the Lucas will actually perform should allow unhardened tooling to perform reasonably well.

    Part of my plan for this thread is to document any setups of interest on the Lucas, but feel free to critique and add information.

    Archie

    P.S.: Upon reflection, I think I will enshrine your advice:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces
    It's always wise to prevent any movement before it happens.

  6. #385
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    Archie --

    I would be surprised if browsing through Ingersoll's "Engineered Setup Equipment" catalog didn't plant a few seeds in your thoughts: http://64.26.26.148/immco/us/ingsetup.pdf

    Edited to add that John Hruska makes some excellent "homemade setup equipment" suggestions here: Bullard VTL setup hijinks.....VTL operator questions

    John

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  8. #386
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    Ok Archie, the slot stops don't need to be hardened . It's just up to the operators personal preference. Regards Tyrone.

  9. #387
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    Default Good links . . .

    John,

    Thanks a bunch for your contributions, especially the Ingersoll catalog -- I have seen a lot of these items, but it is great to have them all gathered together. I will be factoring a number of these items into the tooling plan for the Lucas. The Bullard clamping info will be very useful because we have a 36" Bullard in operation at Tuckahoe.

    It is interesting (to me at least) that those who prepared the Ingersoll graphics are showing some misunderstanding of how to use a strap clamp. To put it simply, it is always best to have the tension member (the T-bolt) as close to the work-piece as possible -- touching the work-piece is fine. When the nut is tightened on the T-bolt (or the stud on a T-nut), the strap clamp becomes a lever which applies force to the work-piece and the heel block, putting them in compression against the table. The forces applied follow the theory of a simple lever. What we want is to clamp the work-piece, not the heel block. (The heel block will not have cutting forces applied to it, but the work-piece certainly will.) I would like to add another reason to get the tension member as close to the work-piece as possible: If the tension member is toward the middle of the strap clamp, its downward force is trying to bend the strap clamp, but also trying to bend the table. This bending is not a good thing, especially in light mills with thin tables. It is possible to distort the table enough that hand-feed of table is more difficult -- something which may not be noticed if using power feed and rapid traverse. Breakouts of the T-slots are more likely because it is necessary to tighten the nut on the T-bolt more to get the same clamping force on the work-piece.

    This is also a reason why "Rite-Hite" clamps should be used carefully. I do have some of these, but would not use them for any operation that required heavy clamping. If one does as Tyrone suggests and prevents horizontal movement with stops or toe clamps, then the vertical clamping need not be as high, but if friction between the table needs to be generated, then heavier clamping is needed. It is also good to apply the clamping force at more than one point so that at least two points, as far apart as possible resist the rotation of the work-piece about a single clamping point.

    Pardon my lengthy exposition, but this is part of what I taught in classes related to milling and I prefer to be as complete as possible.

    Archie

  10. #388
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    Hi Archie, Lots of times you need to restrain horizontal movements on a Hor bore because you can't afford too much down force on your vertical clamping re distortion of the workpiece. Hope that makes sense. Regards Tyrone.

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    Default Tooling goals . . .

    Tyrone,

    You make perfect sense. In my teaching career I covered basic work-holding in introductory courses -- that is where I would have mentioned the bit about T-bolt location. Then, two years later in the curriculum, I taught Tool Design where a lot of time was spent on jigs and fixtures. Actually it is the same theory, whether one is doing a single part clamped to the table or designing a production fixture.

    It is always best to positively locate the work-piece so that it cannot translate in X, Y, & Z or rotate about any of the same axes. It is always best to clamp directly opposite of all locating points and to avoid restraint by friction, which requires much higher clamping forces. I thank you & others for reminding me that one can only do this if the proper tooling is available -- ideally located immediately next to the machine.

    As weak as my setup was, I had to dig in bins and search around for several hours to find the few components I used. At Tuckahoe we have many components, but for any kind of efficiency, the need to be organized and kept near where they are used. Most of us know that setup time usually is far greater than machining time, but proper tooling right next to the machine reduces both because better work-holding allows one to make more serious cuts.

    In my ideal world, I would have had a face mill with at least 20 teeth mounted on the spindle sleeve and all the clamping & locating tooling right next to the machine. I would have banked the part against toe clamps on three sides of its base so that sliding was not going to happen. With a more rigid, multi-tooth cutter, one or two roughing passes and one finish pass would have taken little time with feed rates of 20 times what I used with the flimsy fly-cutter.

    I will be working toward this ideal tooling setup.

    Thanks to all for contributing,

    Archie

    P.S.: For banking surfaces that are perpendicular to the T-slots, I plan on some 1/2" x 1" bars that have holes with the same spacing as the T-slots so that they can be quickly clamped in place with a few T-bolts.

  12. #390
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    That's fine Archie. Another thing you may like consider is packing blocks to use in conjunction with your clamps. We used 3" x 3" aluminium blocks of various lengths, say 1/2", 5/8", 1", 2", 4", 8" etc these could be built up to any height quickly and safely. One end had a 2" dia counterbore by about 3/16" deep and the other end had a 1-31/32" x 3/16" spigot turned onto the block. As I say you could swiftly build them up to any height and they didn't ever move. We went to town and had steel inserts the same style for the ends of the stacks so the aluminium didn't get damaged but we were purists and we're doing it for profit ! I know things like this seem an indulgence but you can't beat a good set-up. Set-up time on an £ 100 per hour machine was big money to us.

    Having said that the oldtime guys scorned the ally blocks and preferred lengths of timber roughly the same size ! They reckon the springyness of the wood maintained the tension in the set-up !

    Best Wishes Tyrone.

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  14. #391
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    Oak 4x4's work well if the ends are cut square and parallel, otherwise they pitch and push the job. I used a radial arm saw to square them up.
    Some photos of shop made set-up supplies.
    Kickers are pipe; faced ends with a v-groove on both ends.
    The adjustable parallels are pipe welded to a base, face the ends.
    The adjustable height is stock with a series of plunge cuts, weld on a top plate and face that end.
    The 'key' really a plate with a slot to match the diameter of the plunge cut was welded to a small piece of chain and in turn the other end of the chain was welded to the base.
    The green parallel, there were sets of different heights and diameters, each set painted a different color.
    The set-up tooling was used on the bar's, vtl, and radial drills.
    Orange paint is there as I worked midnight. It is dangerous to get too comfortable around a machine like this. The paint was a reminder 'don't lean in!' while the table is in motion. There were 28 of these castings for California Steel. I would snug up the kickers before boring. If they became slack during the roughing cuts I knew the job had moved and it was time to check it. At initial setup I took some reference cuts to indicate the part back in if needed later.
    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kicker-parallel.jpg   clamp-parallel.jpg   parallel-kicker.jpg  
    Last edited by jhruska; 11-02-2012 at 06:50 PM. Reason: add photo

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    awesome thread!

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    Yeah, Archie's got a lot to be proud of here. It' a credit to him. I wish I had his unquenchable enthusiasm. I suppose 48 years of metal bashing has worn me out. I can still talk a good job though. Regards Tyrone.

  17. #394
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    I have a machine that is practically identical to this Lucas Precision that I am willing to donate to anyone willing to come get it. It currently is inside a shed that will be demo'd. I am not a machinist, it was left behind by the estate I purchased my home from. If some one doesn't claim it soon I will begin disassembly for re-purposing and scrap. I have a heavy I-beam overhead gantry. If anyone is interested I can send pics. Mine has an electric drive motor, the table has more slots than this machine, and it's missing that tall piece on the right hand side. Thanks for your consideration, David.

  18. #395
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    If you notice in my you tube videos using the HBM I almost always use stop blocks and I usually try to place my hold down bolts so they block too so the part has physical stops in every direction. Nothing can ruin a high dollar or one off job like having the part slip while working on it. It isn't great for seeing but on that transmission case if you had turned it on its top you likely would have found the bores align with it and also you could easily square front and back off those machined surfaces with some stop blocks. That is how I would have done it anyways FWIW.

  19. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by saunde View Post
    I have a machine that is practically identical to this Lucas Precision that I am willing to donate to anyone willing to come get it. It currently is inside a shed that will be demo'd. I am not a machinist, it was left behind by the estate I purchased my home from. If some one doesn't claim it soon I will begin disassembly for re-purposing and scrap. I have a heavy I-beam overhead gantry. If anyone is interested I can send pics. Mine has an electric drive motor, the table has more slots than this machine, and it's missing that tall piece on the right hand side. Thanks for your consideration, David.
    Maybe start a new thread in general or here in the antique section, probably get views.
    GL
    Cheers D

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  21. #397
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    See Post #394

    Two posts with photos of Davids 4" bar machine. No serial to report yet, but it appears to be a 43 series - which came out late twenties and was built thru WW2.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_1501-1-.jpg   img_1502-1-.jpg   img_1503-1-.jpg   img_1506-1-.jpg   img_1509-1-.jpg  


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  23. #398
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    And the others. These are huge photos size wise, but PM dutifully made them smaller

    Add a "looks like" scan
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails scan-01.jpg   img_1512-1-.jpg   img_1513-1-.jpg  

  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by saunde View Post
    I have a machine that is practically identical to this Lucas Precision that I am willing to donate to anyone willing to come get it. It currently is inside a shed that will be demo'd. I am not a machinist, it was left behind by the estate I purchased my home from. If some one doesn't claim it soon I will begin disassembly for re-purposing and scrap. I have a heavy I-beam overhead gantry. If anyone is interested I can send pics. Mine has an electric drive motor, the table has more slots than this machine, and it's missing that tall piece on the right hand side. Thanks for your consideration, David.
    Looks about the same size as my Kearns OA type, so guesstimate of 4 tonnes.

    Nice looking machine, even missing the rear support (and top rotary table??) still well worth saving & putting back into use.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie Cheda View Post
    Stephen,

    No more amazing than the body of your work. (For readers: I have visited Stephen's shop for a complete tour.)

    Having long experience with myself, I am impressed that I managed to persevere through the Lucas project, but I would credit two forces outside myself to explain why my other hobby projects do not show as much perseverance, although I am willing to take credit for actually providing the muscle. The two forces are:

    o The simple fact that the Lucas belongs to the Tuckahoe Machine Shop Museum.

    o My choice of posting the story in real time on the PM forum.

    While I did take a long time (four years) I found that no matter what distractions came along, the fact that all of you were following along and encouraging me always brought me back to work. Now that the Lucas is running, the pressure of actual jobs for it will drive the work of finding and making tooling. I hope that this phase will be of equal interest.

    Thanks,

    Archie
    Anyone heard from Archie lately? I met him years ago when he was getting ready to move to California. That is about when he stopped posting.


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