Lucas Model 21 Horizontal Boring mill
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  1. #1
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    Default Lucas Model 21 Horizontal Boring mill

    Hey there guys and gals,

    Along with the acquisition of the Hendey tie bar I already posted about, I've also come into a Lucas model 21 HBM recently and will be moving it, weather permitting into my hobby/project shop next weekend.

    I'll be going over it and fixing it alot like Archie did for the Tuckahoe Lucas. Granted he already did a thread on this, would there be any interest in me doing a thread in the same vein or would that be old hat now?

    I'll be going in a very starkly different direction and modernizing the machine more than keeping it as it was (would that fall under a different forum).

    Pictures will be forth coming once we start moving it, if theres interest in a thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmidon View Post
    Hey there guys and gals,

    Along with the acquisition of the Hendey tie bar I already posted about, I've also come into a Lucas model 21 HBM recently and will be moving it, weather permitting into my hobby/project shop next weekend.

    I'll be going over it and fixing it alot like Archie did for the Tuckahoe Lucas. Granted he already did a thread on this, would there be any interest in me doing a thread in the same vein or would that be old hat now?

    I'll be going in a very starkly different direction and modernizing the machine more than keeping it as it was (would that fall under a different forum).

    Pictures will be forth coming once we start moving it, if theres interest in a thread.
    I'm always interested in Horizontal boring machines.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    As the onwer of a Lucas 31, I will be interested in what you do to modernize your mill.

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    Making popcorn already !

    -D

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    I can almost guarantee the 21 will have plain spindle bearings - and came from factory with very low speeds to suit those bearings

    As to time line - the 41 was already out come 1929 - and we know the 31 was made for years before that. Serial book lists the first 31 in 1912

    I have an early booklet on the 41 - in which at least 2 pages are on refitting the plain spindle bearings on early 41 machines

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmidon View Post
    I'll be going in a very starkly different direction and modernizing the machine more than keeping it as it was (would that fall under a different forum).
    Surely.

    One or the other of Optimism. Or perhaps insanity? Most 'ere would be pleased enough it functioned "as new, or near-as-dammit".

    Obsolete don't mean useless. Or so I hope to keep my Wife convinced for a while longer!

    Interesting "shew", either way. By all means, "have at it!"


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    Yeh it's got plain bearings and 150rpm tops. I've got a couple ideas on working around that for when I need to work around those 2 particular pitfalls. I looked over the 41 spindle bearings documents you sent me, and guessing that will be one of the more involved aspects of rebuild/repair, unless I get lucky and they are tolerable.

    Can you guesstimate what a tolerable level of running clearance would be on a machine of this style? I know clearance/fits for more modern ones with roller bearings and hard chrome spindles, but I doubt this would have such stringent requirements.

    Going to bounce some of the frankenboringmill ideas off who's ever interested and wants to throw their 2 cents in.

    For drilling/light duty work I planned on using a spindle speeder from a CNC with the Male 50 taper end ground into a Morse #5, I have a couple of them laying around from mold shops auctioning off surplus or going out of business back in the early 2000s. A 6 to 1 and a 4 to 1, thinking the 6 to 1 would be more than plenty good for what I would normally use this for.

    About the only real issue with doing that, is I would need to make a telescoping arm that attaches to the headstock to hold the planet carrier and have some degree of travel. Say 6 to 12 inches more would be cool? Mainly for drilling and tapping, some light milling within the limits of what a ER40 will allow.

    My other thought was to make an auxiliary attachment that bolts up to the faceplate, but tbh I dont forsee me needing speeds above 150ish RPM for the bulk of what I'll be using this for and that would be very involved. I'll be using it for mainly repair work and building new machinery to do field machining, and to add another thing I can do for customers. I currently do alot of portable milling/lineboring, Long term this will probably end up being a hobby machine after spring and we thaw out, I finally got permits to expand my shop with a foundation planned in for a HBM abit larger than this and a VBM if I can find a decent one that isnt completely clapped out.

    For Rapids or the lack there of, I dont want anything lightning quick, but was planning on using some 1.5hp DC gear motors on the X and Z, I think purely for positioning that would be plenty, though any thoughts on that would be cool. The leadscrew for the Z runs far enough out the back and has a square that if I can come up with a motor mount on the bed I think that could work?

    For faceplate/facing head and doing some larger diameter T lathe work in a pinch, I've got a 16" diameter chunk of steel laying around that was a cut off from a large shaft I made. If I make the T slot arrangement in such a way, I think I should be able to mount some of the facing slides I have for portable equipment. They operate off starwheels, so nothing fancy, but should work for work in the size range this machine will handle for facing.

    And of course mount snout bars or boring mill chucking jaws.

    Now a question for Tyrone, on the older Kearns machines how did the squaring table lift mechanism work? On Devlieg E style tables, a cam engages and lifts a ball bearing carrier that lifts the table and allows you to rotate it. Was the Kearns style similar? I'd like to try replicating that if at all possible. I really liked that functionality on the machines I ran with it.

    And hopefully I'll have the tenacity to see this through to the end, Archie's project was a pretty involved affair and this seems to be an equally large endeavor.

    Anyways thanks and if any of those ideas are just out and out bad, let me know, I am flying by the seat of my pants here, hoping I'll have some fun with it though, HBMs have to be my all time favorite shop machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmidon View Post
    Yeh it's got plain bearings and 150rpm tops. I've got a couple ideas on working around that for when I need to work around those 2 particular pitfalls. I looked over the 41 spindle bearings documents you sent me, and guessing that will be one of the more involved aspects of rebuild/repair, unless I get lucky and they are tolerable.

    Can you guesstimate what a tolerable level of running clearance would be on a machine of this style? I know clearance/fits for more modern ones with roller bearings and hard chrome spindles, but I doubt this would have such stringent requirements.

    Going to bounce some of the frankenboringmill ideas off who's ever interested and wants to throw their 2 cents in.

    For drilling/light duty work I planned on using a spindle speeder from a CNC with the Male 50 taper end ground into a Morse #5, I have a couple of them laying around from mold shops auctioning off surplus or going out of business back in the early 2000s. A 6 to 1 and a 4 to 1, thinking the 6 to 1 would be more than plenty good for what I would normally use this for.

    About the only real issue with doing that, is I would need to make a telescoping arm that attaches to the headstock to hold the planet carrier and have some degree of travel. Say 6 to 12 inches more would be cool? Mainly for drilling and tapping, some light milling within the limits of what a ER40 will allow.

    My other thought was to make an auxiliary attachment that bolts up to the faceplate, but tbh I dont forsee me needing speeds above 150ish RPM for the bulk of what I'll be using this for and that would be very involved. I'll be using it for mainly repair work and building new machinery to do field machining, and to add another thing I can do for customers. I currently do alot of portable milling/lineboring, Long term this will probably end up being a hobby machine after spring and we thaw out, I finally got permits to expand my shop with a foundation planned in for a HBM abit larger than this and a VBM if I can find a decent one that isnt completely clapped out.

    For Rapids or the lack there of, I dont want anything lightning quick, but was planning on using some 1.5hp DC gear motors on the X and Z, I think purely for positioning that would be plenty, though any thoughts on that would be cool. The leadscrew for the Z runs far enough out the back and has a square that if I can come up with a motor mount on the bed I think that could work?

    For faceplate/facing head and doing some larger diameter T lathe work in a pinch, I've got a 16" diameter chunk of steel laying around that was a cut off from a large shaft I made. If I make the T slot arrangement in such a way, I think I should be able to mount some of the facing slides I have for portable equipment. They operate off starwheels, so nothing fancy, but should work for work in the size range this machine will handle for facing.

    And of course mount snout bars or boring mill chucking jaws.

    Now a question for Tyrone, on the older Kearns machines how did the squaring table lift mechanism work? On Devlieg E style tables, a cam engages and lifts a ball bearing carrier that lifts the table and allows you to rotate it. Was the Kearns style similar? I'd like to try replicating that if at all possible. I really liked that functionality on the machines I ran with it.

    And hopefully I'll have the tenacity to see this through to the end, Archie's project was a pretty involved affair and this seems to be an equally large endeavor.

    Anyways thanks and if any of those ideas are just out and out bad, let me know, I am flying by the seat of my pants here, hoping I'll have some fun with it though, HBMs have to be my all time favorite shop machine.
    Hi matey, yes the old " Kearns " table lifter was very similar. You pulled a knob on the front of the lower table. This was connected by a rod to a gizmo in the centre of the lower table that slightly raised a threaded hardened housing containing ball bearings. The upper table had a hardened spigot on the underside that was a neat fit into the housing. The top table revolved in the ball bearings.
    When you pulled the knob out the upper table raised about 0.010". That's usually enough to rotate the table freely.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Hi matey, yes the old " Kearns " table lifter was very similar. You pulled a knob on the front of the lower table. This was connected by a rod to a gizmo in the centre of the lower table that slightly raised a threaded hardened housing containing ball bearings. The upper table had a hardened spigot on the underside that was a neat fit into the housing. The top table revolved in the ball bearings.
    When you pulled the knob out the upper table raised about 0.010". That's usually enough to rotate the table freely.

    Regards Tyrone.
    That's how it works on my Kearns OA borer. Not that I use it a lot ATM.

    PDW

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    20200125_105851.jpg20200125_093818.jpg20200125_105851.jpg20200125_093818.jpg

    Alright lads, havent got it in the shop yet because we got hammered with 6 inches of snow which made everything take longer than planned and there were some issues with the crane and fitting in my driveway, didnt get any pictures of the lift sorry, we lost some time and he had a tight schedule to meet, sticking this lift in as a favor before a crane inspection.

    Going to have to clear and salt/sand the driveway, going to roll it in sometime this afternoon if I can clear up this ice.

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    Nice. I have been on the look out around me for one that size.

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    Add pressurized oiling to the spindle bearings, should get up around 1200 RPM!!! With the amount of wear in the journals. Just saying.

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    4G I think the straight cut gears might have some complaints at that speed lol some very serious, very loud, gnashing complaints.

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    My Universial is pretty fracking loud at 200-300rpm. Kinda like a preasure Washer starving for water. If you have a wife and your shop is attached to your house you may consider buying her some ear plugs for valentine's day.

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    I looked at a WWII era HBM that the owner had converted to precision bearings in the 60's. He was a pretty sharp dude. Tons of work to get up to the 500 or so RPM that the geartrain would handle. Very, very loud.

    If you are planning on getting a normal size modern HBM why are you messing with this thing? No offense, just wondering as to why a money earning shop would put effort into this machine when you can buy a modern one with all the bells and whistles for not much money. I have bought 1950's G&L's for a couple hundred each at auctions, taken the tooling and given them to the scrappers. They weren't premo stuff, but a hundredfold more useful than that old thing.

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    This one has been listed on CL for free for a few months. I got the DRO and some tooling from it.
    Not sure, but it might still be available....for FREE.

    lucas.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I looked at a WWII era HBM that the owner had converted to precision bearings in the 60's. He was a pretty sharp dude. Tons of work to get up to the 500 or so RPM that the geartrain would handle. Very, very loud.

    If you are planning on getting a normal size modern HBM why are you messing with this thing? No offense, just wondering as to why a money earning shop would put effort into this machine when you can buy a modern one with all the bells and whistles for not much money. I have bought 1950's G&L's for a couple hundred each at auctions, taken the tooling and given them to the scrappers. They weren't premo stuff, but a hundredfold more useful than that old thing.
    Honestly it was a right place, right time, right size, right price type of thing when I bought it.

    I had afew Lucas and GL machines I could have got around the same time, but I wasnt too keen on throwing a 35,000 to 50,000lb machine on a 6 inch slab. Saw this one, and well bought it. Foolish probably I'll give you that.

    Worst case scenario, I got what I paid for which is basically scrap.

    Any restoration and what not work I am doing on my own time, so I don't see it as too much of an actual loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmidon View Post
    I wasnt too keen on throwing a 35,000 to 50,000lb machine on a 6 inch slab. Saw this one, and well bought it.
    I have several 40K lb machines on 6-8" of slab. Doesn't seem to be an issue. I put an isolated foundation in for one of my presses, because the reciprocating mass is several tons, but my 4" HBM just sits on the floor like everything else and seems perfectly happy. I wouldn't pick it up with a versalift on my floor, but just sitting there with 15 or so jacking screws on steel plates it doesn't seem bad at all. I have a 38,000 lb mill that only has 6 leveling screws and that one is a bit different to level as the floor goes down before the machine goes up when you turn the bolts.

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    I would suggest that a " wide bed " style machine like the very nice " Lucas " in the recent photograph would be more tolerant of being sat on a 6" to 8" slab of concrete. It's not ideal and I wouldn't hang my hat on it alignment guarantee wise but it's probably doable.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    At least some (G&L?) that look wide really have separate castings for the "wide" bed appearance. Seems these would suffer more on marginal slabs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I would suggest that a " wide bed " style machine like the very nice " Lucas " in the recent photograph would be more tolerant of being sat on a 6" to 8" slab of concrete. It's not ideal and I wouldn't hang my hat on it alignment guarantee wise but it's probably doable.

    Regards Tyrone.


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