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MADRAS MACHINE TOOL MFRS .LTD. COIMBATORE lathe

Cosmo_Gr

Plastic
Joined
Jul 2, 2017
Hello !
First time writing in your forum!
I bought a lathe some years ago to start machining and making some parts. The machine after some repairs from the local dealer it was in a working condition and it was doing what ever i wanted for a beginner. Now i want to make it more precise and start cutting threads. But the problem is,among others, i cant find any info for that machine.
Some photos of the machine:














 
What don't you know? You have been using it, tell us what you DO KNOW

You seem to be able to make your way with ENGLISH, and that is what is on the lathe in the way of info

Do you have the list of "change wheels" in the first photo?
 
I, II, and V
Clutch Disengaged; The half-nuts can be engaged or dis-engaged to the leadscrew while cutting threads. The thread dial located on the apron should be rotated to engage the leadscrew. The engagement is timed to the number on the thread dial for odd number, even, and 1/2 pitches.
This is for English thread system, 55, 60, or 29 degree thread forms.

III, IV, VI, and VII
Clutch Engaged; For metric-metric module threads leave the half-nuts (clutch) engaged at all times while thread cutting. Thread up to a stop point and Reverse the Spindle while backing out the thread tool. Return to the thread starting point, move the thread tool for the next depth of cut and run the spindle forward.

Gear train "looks like" 29, 55 and then 49, 127 for III Metric Series Pitch.
Looks like the setting is A and 2 for metric pitch 1.25 unless the selector setting is 1. Then the pitch would be 1.375.
"M Engage" may be for the metric and metric module threads, II, IV, VI, and VII.
John
 
The lathe has a thread chasing dial (geared to run off the lead screw). This has a series of lines, usually numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, and shorter "half lines" in between. The chasing dial is used during thread cutting and makes life easier (in my own opinion and experience). You set the quick change box to cut whatever thread pitch you need, set the spindle to turn a fairly slow rpm, and set the direction of lead screw rotation to cut either a right hand (clockwise to tighten) or left hand (counterclockwise to tighten) thread. Assuming you have turned your work to the required outer diameter and have a thread-cutting toolbit ground (based on the form of the thread you want to cut, Metric, Whitworth, Unified National Form being the major ones), you set the toolbit in the toolpost or toolholder and make sure the tip is right on the centerline of the spindle. Set the compound (top slide) on the lathe so it is at 1/2 of the included angle of the thread form you want to cut. For Unified National Form threads (60 degree included angle), we set the compound at 29 degrees. Whitworth is 55 degrees, so about 27 degree angle on the compound. You should have a "center gauge" ( a thin metal template with notches having the included angle of the thread form you want to cut). Use the center gauge to set the toolbit so the centerline of the pointed area of the toolbit is perpendicular to the centerline of the spindle.

My method- oldtimer's method: First: take up backlash in the thread on the compound (top slide) screw. Back the compound rest crank out maybe a turn and then come in. Make sure you have sufficient remaining travel on the compound for the depth of thread you want to cut. You will need to calculate thread depth before starting to actually cut the threads in the lathe.

Use a piece of paper as a "feeler". Crank your cross slide out maybe 1/2 turn to take up backlash, then crank in slowly until the point of the toolbit just catches the paper and you can drag the paper out without it ripping or tearing. Mike the thickness of the paper and note it. Zero your cross slide micrometer collar. Back out the cross slide maybe 1/2 turn on the hand crank. Zero the micrometer collar on the compound rest as well.

Start the lathe and bring the cross slide in to the zero mark plus the thickness of the paper and re-set the zero on the cross slide. Bring the compound in perhaps 0,05 mm. Make sure the lead screw is engaged. When the chasing dial line is in line with the stationary mark on the body of the dial ( there will be instructions on the dial such as " for even threads engage on any line, for odd threads engage on any numbered line"). Engage the half nuts and keep your hand on the half nut lever. The carriage will be moving a lot faster than you might expect, so be sure you know which way to move the half nut lever to disengage (open) the half nuts. Keep your other hand on the cross feed crank handle. The tool will be feeding along the work and cutting the thread to a very light depth. When the tool reaches the end of the area you want threaded, simultaneously, using both hands at once, disengage the half nuts and crank back the cross slide. This take practice and you might want to try it with the toolbit NOT touching the work, until you are comfortable and able to do this quickly and smoothly.

When the toolbit reaches the end of the portion of the work to be threaded, you have to simultaneously back it out and stop the feeding.
If you screw up (pardon the pun), you will tear into more of the work and maybe spring or bend the job if it is a smaller diameter part.

You crank the carriage back towards the tailstock (if a right hand thread is being cut), bring the cross slide in to the zero, and advance the compound (top slide) perhaps 0,1 mm and cut the thread deeper by engaging the half nuts when the line on the chasing dial lines up. You keep doing this until you get the thread cut to depth. As a final cut, I like to move the cross slide in a small amount (I think in inch dimensions), and take a finishing cut, then take a final "spring cut", with the same settings on the cross slide and compound.

If you have a screw pitch gauge, use it. I put a piece of white paper behind the work to help reflect light, and put the screw pitch gauge on the thread that was just cut. A small LED flashlight and magnifying glass help a lot on fine threads. Use cutting oil for steel. I run a smooth cut lathe file over the threads I have cut while the lathe is turning to break off any burrs before trying the screw pitch gauge. If you have a mating part such as a nut, use it as a gauge. If not, you have to depend on your calculations for thread depth, and your use of the screw pitch gauge.

That is threading 101. I suggest you use the Internet and find some youtubes about thread cutting in a lathe. Other than that, get some scrap steel and practice turning to exact diameters and then cutting threads upon which you can try screwing on nuts.

Making your lathe more accurate is an open ended question. A good machinist can get fine work out of a worn lathe. Other than adjusting the gibs on the cross slide and compound (top slide) to make them fit more closely on the slides, there is not much you can do. Make sure the tailstock centerline is lined up with the spindle centerline, and remember to take out the backlash when you re-position the cross slide or topslide.
 
Thank you for your help! I will experiment! My lathe as you see is old and i just finished fixing the clutch so i can cut metric threads. I worry about spare parts. Also the internet hasn't any info or the model of that lathe... is something break what i do ?
 
John Oder has beaten me to the answer as to spare parts. Those of us who own and work with old machine tools usually work on them without manuals and without any spare parts. If something breaks, we have several choices:

-repair what is broken (if it can be welded or brazed or put back together with screws or bolts and dowel pins)
-make a new part out of steel using machining and possibly welding to fabricate the part, then finish machining.
-find something else that works, such as parts from another old machine tool, parts from a car or truck or diesel engine (or anything else that might work) and modify/machine those parts as needed to fit your machine tool
-find some ready-made parts such as stock gearing, bearings, fasteners, etc. In the USA, we have catalogs of "stock" gearing in various pitches, materials, numbers of teeth, etc. This gearing is supplied with the hubs unbored, or bored with a "pilot hole". The person fitting the gearing to whatever he is using it on has to bore the gear hub to fit his application. Or, find a stock gear or used gear and make a bushing to fit in the hub if it is already too big.

In short, if you have an older machine tool, you are pretty much on your own to figure things out and make it work. Many years ago, when you bought a new machine tool, at best you got a parts manual, and maybe some lubrication instructions or change gear notes. A manual telling you what to do step-by-step never happened. The belief was if you knew enough to buy a machine tool, you knew enough to set it up, run it, and maintain it. When many of us get older machine tools, we know we are on our own for making parts, repairing and adjusting, and operating those machine tools. Your lathe appears to be complete. Nothing seems obviously missing or broken. When I was a boy attending Brooklyn Technical High School in the 1960's, our teachers taught us to look at machine tools and figure out for ourselves what the various controls did. We would be operating engine lathes, mills, shapers, etc of many different manufacturers. Our teachers taught us to look at machine tools and figure things out for ourselves using our eyes and our minds. That is the name of the game if you want to work on machine tools. Slow and cautious, but figure it out for yourself and you will be way ahead of the game.
 
Joe gave a great general description about threading. However, here are a few more tips that I've learned over the years.
First, make sure about the pitch of the leadscrew: if it is by any chance metric, the engaging and disengaging of the half nuts when threading can be done while cutting metric threads, but not inch threads (or, better, read the procedure here below).
If the leadscrew is imperial (e.g. 4tpi), you can cut any thread with an exact multiple of the leadscrew pitch by engaging and disengaging the leadscrew at any position.
While threading, I prefer to keep the handle of the cross-slide wheel exactly at 6 o'clock, so that it's rather easy to reset it to zero by giving just a quick glance to the graduations on the dial.
Cutting metric threads on imperial lathe or imperial threads on metric lathe: you can disengage, but you also need to stop the spindle. Remember (or, even better, mark with an indelible marker) the number on the thread dial you engage the half-nuts the first time. Proceed as beautifully described by Joe, with disengaging the half-nuts and withdrawing the cross-slide.
Immediately after that, you stop the spindle and turn it in reverse: when the correct mark on the thread dial comes back to the index mark, you re-engage the half nuts and move the carriage back to the start position with the half-nuts engaged. It is very important that you do not allow the thread dial to rotate a full turn or more when disengaged.

Paolo
 
PaoloMD:

Thank you for the kind words.

CosmoGR:

Thread cutting in the lathe is a skill that takes a bit of practice. It is like learning to drive a car or motorcycle. When you think you have mastered using the clutch, you come to a hill and discover that starting a car or motorcycle on a hill without rolling back is a whole new skill. It is the same with threading in the lathe. Kind of like being able to drive a car and let out the clutch OK on level roads, but learning to start on a hill adds a new level of skill.

Paolo has given you some excellent advice as to cutting metric and Imperial threads. I'd suggest you determine the pitch of the thread on your lathe's leadscrew (number of threads per inch, or distance in MM between the same points on two consecutive threads). This will determine how you work the half nuts and use the chasing dial.

You refer to your lathe as "old". Looking at your photos, I'd say your lathe is fairly modern. "Old" to us on this 'board is more like 100 years or so. Plenty of us use lathes and other machine tools built 100 years or more ago. A fully enclosed geared-head lathe with roller bearings on the spindle, inch/metric quick change gearbox, "boxy" styling... and the design of your lathe is "new", probably built in the 1960's-70's.

My LeBlond lathe was shipped on 26 July, 1943, and while it is 74 years old (nearly), I hardly think of it as an "old lathe". My Cincinnati-Bickford drill was built in 1917, so is just turning 100 years old. I note you live in Greece, the cradle of civilization and a place where antiquities are more common than not. A lathe such as yours is nearly new- whether by our standards for "old" machine tools, and certainly when compared to ancient Greece and the antiquities. On the other hand, even a new machine tool can be hard-used by a previous owner, and have some worn parts. That is equivalent to "pre-mature aging", and by that thinking, your lathe may indeed by "old".
 
That lathe is from a region of India that has made machine tools for quite some time. Probably parts of it were made by various firms that may have changed over the years. IMO the odds of finding information today are probably very poor.
 
As a mechanical eng student i try to gain some expertise so as a newbie i dont have realistic standards. I think with experience i will master some things! For internal threading now... i want to make some 12x1 nuts and i cant find near me tools this small. What do you suggest? i am trying to make a custom tool. Is it worth it or just buy a special one (and maybe not cheap).
 
Cosmo:

Some 45 + years ago, I was also a mechanical engineering student as you are now. I had the benefit of a wonderful education in the practical side of mechanical engineering at Brooklyn Technical High School, graduating from there in 1968 and going on to study engineering at what was then called Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn. Through my high school years and college years, I worked in machine shops, and became a journeyman machinist. I learned my trade from oldtimers and in old-time machine shops. To find a young engineering student such as yourself who wants to learn and do the practical side of mechanical engineering is special. Most young engineering students today seem to play with computer modelling or computer simulation and do not go near anything like machine tools or workshops. I am sure all of us on this 'board will try to help you all we can. You came to the right place to ask for help, and as an oldtime engineer and machinist, I find one of my greatest satisfactions is helping young engineering students and young engineers starting their careers along their journeys.

On the matter of internal threading: I am an old US dinosaur, so I think in inches rather than millimeters, however, I can convert mm dimensions and thread pitches pretty quickly in my head. 12 mm x 1,0 mm is roughly 1/2" diameter x 25 threads to the inch. This is a fairly fine thread and a fairly small diameter to use to start learning about internal threading. Here are some thoughts:

1. Learn to grind high speed steel toolbit blanks. These are inexpensive, and you can grind and re-use and re-grind them many times. You can also grind a cutting toolbit at either end of a high speed steel blank. You get two tools for the price of one blank. You can grind the lathe cutting toolbits from the high speed steel toolbits on a bench-grinder or even a bench-top belt sander.

Carbide tools are great, but they are relatively expensive and if you chip or break a carbide tool, you have to have a diamond wheel to regrind them. High Speed Steel toolbits are more forgiving, and you can grind them to any shape or type of cutting tool you need for a particular job.

2. If you want to learn about threading, you will need to get the following tools:
-a "center gauge" to enable you to properly position (we call it "setting up") the toolbit in your lathe relative to the centerline of the
spindle and work.
-a screw pitch gauge. This has multiple gauges and you use it to check that your trial cut of a thread in the lathe is the right pitch,
and you use it to check thread form as you cut the threads. You also use it to check the pitch of other threaded parts to determine
what pitch thread they are.
-a small pocket sized oilstone for stoning the cutting edges of your toolbits. An "India Medium Hard" pocket stone about 25 mm wide x
12 mm thick x 75 mm long is all you need. Using the oilstone to hone the cutting edges of a freshly ground lathe toolbit (only on high
speed steel tools, NOT carbide), you improve surface finish. You can also stone small radius' on the nose of the tool or refine the
final dimensions on special tools (like for cutting grooves of a specific width for "O" rings, etc).

3. My own advice to you is to get some scrap steel, perhaps 25 mm in diameter or a little bigger. Practice turning this steel to a specific
diameter and check yourself with a micrometer. Get some nuts of common threads, and these are your "gauges". Practice turning the scrap
steel to the correct diameter for a given thread size, then practice cutting OUTSIDE threads. When you learn to cut outside threads and
are comfortable with doing it- the working of the half nut lever and the cross feed crank has to become smooth and natural to you- then
you start thinking about cutting internal threads.

4. For internal threading on something like the 12 x 1,0 nuts, I'd suggest you get some high speed steel toolbit blanks and grind a small
internal threading tool from one of them. I grind small boring bars and internal threading tools from the high speed steel blanks and
these do a fine job of boring and threading in smaller diameters/fine pitches.

By grinding a boring bar and also grinding an internal threading tool from the high speed steel blanks, you will save a LOT of money, and
you will learn a great deal. I use 3/8" x 3/8" M-2 grade high speed steel toolbit blanks for the majority of work, same thing I've used
for over 50 years. On a common 6 inch bench grinder, you can grind the tools you need to bore and internal thread the 12 x 1,0 threads.
Again, you will need a center gauge to check the form of the threading tool you grind, as well as to do the setup of the tool in your
lathe.

A favorite saying of mine is "one step at a time", and this is how it is when you learn machine work. With a geared head lathe such as you
have, there is very little room for error. It is easy to have a crash (running the carriage or topslide into the chuck under power feed or when threading). Learn the machine, and get to where working the various controls is like playing a musical instrument or anything else you do automatically without having to look for keys or similar. Master grinding the toolbits, then master turning outer diameters to exact measurements, then master boring internal diameters... then try outside threading and when you get reasonably good at it, then you advance to internal threading. One step at a time. You are learning in your own shop without benefit of a mentor or oldtimer to look over your shoulder and work with you to teach you. A geared head lathe is not your friend, and if you make a mistake, it will not hesitate to snap off a toolbit or crash the topslide into the chuck jaws and start destroying other parts. Worse yet is if you get caught by the work or the moving parts. The lathe will pull you in and sever injury can result. In the least case, always wear safety glasses anytime you enter your shop. Your eyes are the most valuable sense and to injure them or worse is all too easy to do. I've been to the emergency rooms of hospitals a number of times over the years to get welding slag and fine chips taken out of my eyes. Never handle the chips (turnings) from your lathe bare-handed. Wear work gloves or use pliers or some other tools to handle the chips. The cuttings or chips from a lathe can cut into your hands or fingers like a sharp razor and cut right to the bone and cut tendons in a heartbeat. Never get the idea of handling the chips barehanded, let alone when the lathe is running and the chips are curling off of it. I did that a few years back, machining a small job out of O-1 (drill rod) in one of my lathes. Without thinking, I lifted the small spiral chip off the carriage wing as it spiraled off the work. Just that quick, I had a deep cut. It was as clean as a razor or surgeon's scalpel and deep. I got a pressure dressing on it, shut down the lathe and asked my wife to take me to the local hospital emergency room. It took 4 sutures to close that wound. I had been doing machine work a LONG time, but just got careless or did not think for that one moment. Remember to think and look things over before you start your lathe. Make sure the job is properly setup in the chuck, or between centers, or on a faceplate. A good habit is to bring the carriage and topslide over as close to the chuck and work as it will be when the job is turning in the lathe. Put the gearshift levers on the headstock in between gears so you can turn the headstock spindle by hand. We call this "pulling over" the spindle. By pulling over the spindle by hand, if there is an interference where the work or chuck jaws are going to hit the tool, topslide or other parts of the lathe, you will find it out and not have damage occur. You can then change your setup or adjust your toolbit position to eliminate the chance of a crash (when the work or toolbit or some other parts of the lathe are run into the work or chuck under power and damage results).

I'd suggest you get a basic book on lathe work, even if it is not specifically for your Madras lathe. SOuth Bend Lathe, in the USA, had published a basic book called "How to Run a Lathe". Copies can be found on ebay. This is a basic little book, and while it is written with South Bend lathes in mind, there is a great deal of common information you will find quite useful.


Best of Luck-
Joe Michaels
 
First, make sure about the pitch of the leadscrew: if it is by any chance metric, the engaging and disengaging of the half nuts when threading can be done while cutting metric threads, but not inch threads (or, better, read the procedure here below).
If the leadscrew is imperial (e.g. 4tpi), you can cut any thread with an exact multiple of the leadscrew pitch by engaging and disengaging the leadscrew at any position.
Cutting metric threads on imperial lathe or imperial threads on metric lathe: you can disengage, but you also need to stop the spindle. Remember (or, even better, mark with an indelible marker) the number on the thread dial you engage the half-nuts the first time. Proceed as beautifully described by Joe, with disengaging the half-nuts and withdrawing the cross-slide.
Immediately after that, you stop the spindle and turn it in reverse: when the correct mark on the thread dial comes back to the index mark, you re-engage the half nuts and move the carriage back to the start position with the half-nuts engaged. It is very important that you do not allow the thread dial to rotate a full turn or more when disengaged.
Paolo

Check out the plate. 127 tooth gear is used for every metric and module thread. It's a conversion from the Imperial Standard. Even India still needs to embrace the metric system.:D
Gear Train 1.jpg
John
 
thank you Joe for advice! My threading now is ok! I did some good threads! The only thing i need to improve is accuracy and precision. I fount these two are related to "how much you know your machine's faults". Trial and error then! Now for internal threading i made a tool and i turned a 20x1.5 nut with success with this tool.I have to be extra careful with smaller diameters!
Some photos of the tool! I know its ugly and fast made. But it seems to do the job!



I can find really cheap carbide inserts but low quality. They do the job fine for 1 euro each (the one in the photo).
 
Hello !
First time writing in your forum!
I bought a lathe some years ago to start machining and making some parts. The machine after some repairs from the local dealer it was in a working condition and it was doing what ever i wanted for a beginner. Now i want to make it more precise and start cutting threads. But the problem is,among others, i cant find any info for that machine.
Some photos of the machine:

sir can you resend the images, i too have this lathe and i could not find the geartrain details and thread chart. if you have the details pls post it

thank you in advance
 








 
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