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Metal Shaper(s)

Dtapster

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
I'm looking at two 8" shapers. Both are in my locale and owned by friends. One is a Logan made in 1953 and the other is a Brodhead-Garrett made in 1966 or later (have the SN but no exact date as yet). Both seem to be in nice shape and both have been in storage for several years; they were used in home machine shops.

The B-G is obviously newer, has a 3 phase 3/4 HP motor (I have an RPC) and a few other features the Logan does not, the heavier duty vise being one.

The Logan is older, has single phase 1/2 HP motor and was refurbished several years ago.

The asking price for the Brodhead-Garrett is in the $900 range (maybe get it for $850); no firm price on the Logan yet but it will be less.

Would appreciate comments and recommendations from the braintrust here.

Thanks,

Doug
 
I've never operated either brand, and I'm only a hobbyist so not part of the brain trust. But a shaper is a shaper. And like any machine tool, way surface condition and lack of wear is everything. Unless either of those shapers had working oil pumps or oil cups and they were always looked after properly, it's not unlikely to see scoring on the ram ways, highly worn bushings etc. Then check the Scotch yoke and bull gear assembly, any missing teeth on that bull gear would instantly kill the deal for me. Any missing parts, belt guards etc can turn a machine tool purchase into a large money pit even if you can find the used parts. Convenience aside, I'd always chose 3 ph over any single ph motor. But the Logan has one thing going for it the B-G doesn't. Parts drawings are available for it. Dimensioned Drawing Set For Logan 8" Shaper Neither brand were built in the numbers the South Bend and A##as shapers were, so any used parts would probably be a whole lot tougher to find.

It took me a long time to figure it out, but smaller machine tools previously owned and used/abused by hobbyist's really ought to come with a fairly significant lower price level. My South Bend shaper and small horizontal mill both exhibit exactly what I mean with missing parts, wrong lubrication, neglect and ham fisted damage to some of the parts that are there. And both given there way surface condition, were used very little. No not all machines are like that, but a high percentage of the used smaller machines are. And if they've been sitting in storage for a long period. Then if it were me I'd fully expect to do a full machine survey just like what would be done before totally rebuilding any machine tool, make a list of where and what parts might need attention or replacing and pull the whole machine apart for a through cleaning, re-lube and re-assembly. My slides on both the shaper and mill were almost immovable due to contamination, incorrect and congealed lubrication. It's simply impossible to remove all that without a full disassembly. Where you are any home shop sized machine tools including shapers aren't all that common, $850-$900 despite being ridiculous for a small shaper is today well within the ball park numbers. The South Bends which are a fraction smaller and lighter built seem to average around $1200- well over $2k if there in good condition with a number of original accessories. Having the original vise is a big deal, milling vises used to replace a shaper vise are usually over sized in length and height compared to a the proper OEM shaper vise. I've no idea about what Logan 8" shaper vises are going for today, but I do know on average the original SB vises are running $250 for ones showing multiple peck track marks from being used on a drill press to $400+ for anything in decent condition. In my opinion shapers are a great addition to a home shop if you've got the spare cash and room, but there only a handy addition to already having a decent mill. And yeah there slow, but that's off set with being able to run without attention on larger parts and fed with a lifetimes supply of high speed steel for the price of a couple of decent larger end mills.
 
As mentioned above, you need to base the bulk of the decision on the condition of the machine, ways, gears, bushings etc. If all are equal, what jumps off the page for me is a better vise and the chance to run VFD for 3 phase. I don't have experience with RPC for 3 phase but I do know that VFD to drive 3 phase can give you wonderful speed control
 
View attachment 335131View attachment 335132
I've never operated either brand, and I'm only a hobbyist so not part of the brain trust. But a shaper is a shaper. And like any machine tool, way surface condition and lack of wear is everything. Unless either of those shapers had working oil pumps or oil cups and they were always looked after properly, it's not unlikely to see scoring on the ram ways, highly worn bushings etc. Then check the Scotch yoke and bull gear assembly, any missing teeth on that bull gear would instantly kill the deal for me. Any missing parts, belt guards etc can turn a machine tool purchase into a large money pit even if you can find the used parts. Convenience aside, I'd always chose 3 ph over any single ph motor. But the Logan has one thing going for it the B-G doesn't. Parts drawings are available for it. Dimensioned Drawing Set For Logan 8" Shaper Neither brand were built in the numbers the South Bend and A##as shapers were, so any used parts would probably be a whole lot tougher to find.

It took me a long time to figure it out, but smaller machine tools previously owned and used/abused by hobbyist's really ought to come with a fairly significant lower price level. My South Bend shaper and small horizontal mill both exhibit exactly what I mean with missing parts, wrong lubrication, neglect and ham fisted damage to some of the parts that are there. And both given there way surface condition, were used very little. No not all machines are like that, but a high percentage of the used smaller machines are. And if they've been sitting in storage for a long period. Then if it were me I'd fully expect to do a full machine survey just like what would be done before totally rebuilding any machine tool, make a list of where and what parts might need attention or replacing and pull the whole machine apart for a through cleaning, re-lube and re-assembly. My slides on both the shaper and mill were almost immovable due to contamination, incorrect and congealed lubrication. It's simply impossible to remove all that without a full disassembly. Where you are any home shop sized machine tools including shapers aren't all that common, $850-$900 despite being ridiculous for a small shaper is today well within the ball park numbers. The South Bends which are a fraction smaller and lighter built seem to average around $1200- well over $2k if there in good condition with a number of original accessories. Having the original vise is a big deal, milling vises used to replace a shaper vise are usually over sized in length and height compared to a the proper OEM shaper vise. I've no idea about what Logan 8" shaper vises are going for today, but I do know on average the original SB vises are running $250 for ones showing multiple peck track marks from being used on a drill press to $400+ for anything in decent condition. In my opinion shapers are a great addition to a home shop if you've got the spare cash and room, but there only a handy addition to already having a decent mill. And yeah there slow, but that's off set with being able to run without attention on larger parts and fed with a lifetimes supply of high speed steel for the price of a couple of decent larger end mills.

Hi NM,

Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful response - you bring up many important points. First, I've been able to see the Logan in operation but not cutting any material. It seems to work OK, i.e. no noisy parts and the main mechanism works good as far as I could see; it was lubricated. Both machines have oil cups.

Maybe a little background is in order. Brodhead-Garrett purchased the Logan brand around 1966 so it is somewhat a clone of the earlier Logans. Being focused primarily on the education market, I'm certain that's why their machine has a circular plate that covers the inside of the belt cover on the rear; the Logan does not. The B-G also has a noticeable heavier duty vise. Also has 3/4 HP three phase motor as opposed to 1/2 HP on the Logan. I also read an article that B-G improved on the lubrication system on their models, making it more efficient. Hopefully, I'll be able to see the B-G in operation later this week as the seller has been out of town. As I mentioned earlier the B-G machine is considerably newer than the Logan. I haven't been able to see the bull gear on either machine. I'll need to check and see how difficult it is to access it.

All the parts seem to be there for both machines. The Logan was "gone though" and refurbished several years ago; I know this for a fact as I have the information first-hand. As far as I know there are no accessories with either machine.

I have moved the head on the B-G machine and it seems to operate properly. It probably needs some lubrication and cleanup but I don't think there is any serious wear or damage on it. The only reason I haven't seen it operate yet is because there is no plug on the 3 phase cord. The seller, a friend, said he would get one and fire it up when he returns.

To your point I'm well aware of the dearth of machines out in this neck of the woods, so the price does seem in the ball park. I do have a Bridgeport mill, circa 1992. Also have a South Bend 9" lathe. I'm setting up a home machine shop. The BP mill operates perfectly and has been well cared for, fortunately. SB lathe has been in my storage for several years and hasn't been operated yet. Both have 3 phase motors. I bought an American Rotary RPC which is not yet installed. The machine shop project has taken a back seat to several other projects that were in line before it but now I'll turn my focus on it.

I'm leaning towards the Brodhead-Garrett machine for several reasons. The larger vise, 3/4 HP three phase motor, belt cover, lube system and it being newer. Once I see it operate I'll have a better feel for the choice.

Doug

A few photos of the Brodhead-Garrett machine.

Shaper1.jpgShaper.jpgShaper3.jpgShaper2 copy.jpg
 
As mentioned above, you need to base the bulk of the decision on the condition of the machine, ways, gears, bushings etc. If all are equal, what jumps off the page for me is a better vise and the chance to run VFD for 3 phase. I don't have experience with RPC for 3 phase but I do know that VFD to drive 3 phase can give you wonderful speed control

RPC,

I get your point about the speed control. Fortunately both machines have variable speed control, i.e. you can turn the speed up and down with a wheel crank on the front of the machine.

Doug
 
I have a 1964 Logan with the 3/4 h.p. 3 phase motor and it is just the right size for me. I think the B-G may have a stouter table. The vice would cost you at least 1/4 of their asking price for a nice one. When running, check out the noise level on the chain drive and the variable speed pulleys.

I suspect the older Logan may have been made 10 to 15 years before the B-G, but either one would be a nice addition to your shop unless they've been beat to death. You might eventually consider modifying the tool holder to mount an ER 32 collet chuck for poker bars, it would add a lot of flexibility for you. Check out https://groups.io/g/Metal-Shapers-and-Planers/topics for photos, links, etc., on metal shapers in general.

Dan
 
Here's a couple more, Metal Shaper Literature (and Sources of Information) and an even better one. Metal Shaper Column nn

Plus there's a fair amount of decent information about grinding shaper tools on Youtube to produce the best surface finish with a bit of searching. Try using Shaper Shear Tool as one of the search terms. While it's about the SB shapers, the U.S. Army has an online PDF of the instructions for the there shapers. There's enough useful in it about any shaper it's still worth downloading.

Since you already have a BP then your adding a shaper for probably most of the same reasons I did. Afaik most or probably all post 1920-30's shapers unless they were something oddball will have an access hatch "usually" on the left hand side. That allows setting the ram stroke. But it also allows inspecting those bull gears. You'll likely need to spin the bull gear around by hand to get a visual on all the teeth. Take a flashlight with you. I don't know about the Logan's or B-G machines, but on my little South Bend there's a hand wheel on the right side of the machine that allows a slow hand cycling of the ram through a full stroke. Religiously doing that after setting every new part up and positioning the tool slide isn't going to be an option if you value whatever shaper you end up buying. Even when I'm 100% certain everything is ok I still run it through one full stroke by hand, and if there's any protrusions on the part surface I check the tool slide will clear those as well. Because of there deep gear reduction, anything set up wrong or your own personal body parts that get in the way are going to either get ripped off or break machine parts. The motor generally doesn't stall until something really expensive or hard to replace is already broken. Shapers are deceptive because there not moving very fast, with a large enough gear reduction even a 1/2 motor will rip your hand or fingers off if you do something real stupid. I'm not much of a safety nazi, but I'm still pretty careful around my shaper.

Because of that Scotch Yoke assembly there's a correct and incorrect way to wire the motor/electrical plug. When the motor rotation is correct the ram will cycle backwards faster than it moves forward. That's built into all the shapers I know of and helps speed up the cutting a bit. Learning to set up the clapper box so it swings the tool up and away from the cut as much as possible isn't optional either. At slower ram speeds that clapper box doesn't really do anything, but it frees up the tool so it gets dragged backwards on the work with very little pressure on it other than it's own weight. And generally you should set your ram stroke length for at least a 1/2" past and behind the work piece. That gives the clapper enough time to do what it's supposed to. But there's others here who know much more than I ever will about proper shaper operation.
 
I have a 1964 Logan with the 3/4 h.p. 3 phase motor and it is just the right size for me. I think the B-G may have a stouter table. The vice would cost you at least 1/4 of their asking price for a nice one. When running, check out the noise level on the chain drive and the variable speed pulleys.

I suspect the older Logan may have been made 10 to 15 years before the B-G, but either one would be a nice addition to your shop unless they've been beat to death. You might eventually consider modifying the tool holder to mount an ER 32 collet chuck for poker bars, it would add a lot of flexibility for you. Check out https://groups.io/g/Metal-Shapers-and-Planers/topics for photos, links, etc., on metal shapers in general.

Dan

HiDan,

Thanks for the link to that group. Turns out that I'd already found them and get messages occasionally. I was amazed at the article there about the gent the completely rebuilt the B-G shaper that was damaged in transit from Ohio to Oregon - what a magnificent job!

Do you have any detailed photos, drawings or videos of the ER 32 collet conversion you mentioned?

Thanks,

Doug

P.S. Any comments on the pics of the B-G machine I posted?
 
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I would choose the heavier of the two machines if it were me. I had an Atlas 7" shaper for a while but it was so small and underpowered it was hard to do anything on it.
 
I would choose the heavier of the two machines if it were me. I had an Atlas 7" shaper for a while but it was so small and underpowered it was hard to do anything on it.

Thanks for your comments and the recommendation. Both machines are 8" however I believe the Brodhead-Garrett is a little heavier duty than the Logan. Also has a 3/4 HP motor (Logan has 1/2 HP), B-G is three phase and quite bit "younger" than the Logan. Will hopefully see it operate this week. Will report back.

Doug
 
Dtapster,
When I read what you said about the shaper that got broken up during shipment to Oregon I assumed that had to be mine, but when I read the blog by Mr Kinser I realised it was a different shaper.

But mine, which now belongs to my brother, came from somewhere back East. When the trucking company called saying it had arrived I went down there all excited. "Where is it?" I asked.
"It's still in the trailer, but you need to go look at it." As I went around the corner I saw between the building and the trailer part of the shaper sticking out through the aluminum wall of the trailer box.

There was lots of other damage too.

Their insurance gave me around $1600 (Going by memory there) and I kind of went into despair, the saddle was broken, the side dovetail broke right off the LH side vertical dovetail where it slides up and down the column.
But I called a friend of mine in PA who had two Logans and asked if he happened to have a spare saddle and he did! He sold it to me for $600 and shipped it to me.
Still it took quite a lot of scraping to make it fit and align it, apparently the main components are all slightly different.

But seeing the other similar story made me realize how common the arrival of broken up machine tools is. This story is far too common!
 
Dtapster,
When I read what you said about the shaper that got broken up during shipment to Oregon I assumed that had to be mine, but when I read the blog by Mr Kinser I realised it was a different shaper.

But mine, which now belongs to my brother, came from somewhere back East. When the trucking company called saying it had arrived I went down there all excited. "Where is it?" I asked.
"It's still in the trailer, but you need to go look at it." As I went around the corner I saw between the building and the trailer part of the shaper sticking out through the aluminum wall of the trailer box.

There was lots of other damage too.

Their insurance gave me around $1600 (Going by memory there) and I kind of went into despair, the saddle was broken, the side dovetail broke right off the LH side vertical dovetail where it slides up and down the column.
But I called a friend of mine in PA who had two Logans and asked if he happened to have a spare saddle and he did! He sold it to me for $600 and shipped it to me.
Still it took quite a lot of scraping to make it fit and align it, apparently the main components are all slightly different.

But seeing the other similar story made me realize how common the arrival of broken up machine tools is. This story is far too common!

Glad you had a good result, eventually. Unfortunately these stories are all too familiar with shippers. It all depends on the quality of the workers in the shipping business during transit. Some are responsible and some are not. I've had two machines shipped across the country to me. Fortunately neither one was damaged - I've been lucky.

More recently, the Bridgeport was right here in town as are the shapers and the power hacksaw I'm considering. Hoping I won't have to get any more machinery shipped in!

Doug
 








 
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