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Which Rivett lathe would these collets fit?

The collets are Rivett number 1R, which were made for the model 1R watchmaker lathe.

This lathe was introduced after WWII to fill the needs of the GI's taking watch repair classes. Rivett, like Hardinge, saw demand for their toolroom lathes drop sharply after the war. The 1R was an attempt to keep the factory in business until orders for the big stuff recovered. They were designing the big expensive 1020, which was introduced in 1953. The 1R was an all new design in the Art Deco style, unlike any other watch lathe before or since. I have two and will take some pictures later. A unique feature at the time was a sealed ball bearing spindle with the drive pulley cantilever mounted on the left end.

Rivett started out in the late 1800's making watchmaker lathes in Boston. They were in competition with American Watch Tool in Waltham, the originator of the popular Webster Whitcomb lathe design. Rivett lathes were more expensive, so they did not sell as well. The AWT watch lathe line was later bought out by F.W. Derbyshire, still in business in the Boston area. I heard that Derbyshire eventually bought out the remains of the Rivett watch lathe business. Wade bought out the AWT large machine line and is also still in business in the Boston area.

The old Rivett watch lathes used collets that did not fit any other make of lathe. The Webster Whitcomb collet design were eventually used by almost every watch lathe maker in the world. Derbyshire still owns the name Webster Whitcomb, but Levin in Los Angeles called their collets of that type "WW" and the name caught on.

So, in the late 1940's, almost every watchmaker was using WW collets. Rivett had no reason to try to revive their obsolete collet design, which they had not made for decades. Instead, they wisely decided to make their new 1R lathe use WW collets. Perhaps as a marketing trick, they made their own WW collets and marked them "1R."

The 1R lathe did not become popular. It must have been priced higher than the Marshall Peerless lathe, which is the most commonly found lathe of that period. UK Tony's lathe site says five or six hundred 1R's were made. My 1R's are serial number 89 and 451.
 
The collets are Rivett number 1R, which were made for the model 1R watchmaker lathe.

This lathe was introduced after WWII to fill the needs of the GI's taking watch repair classes. Rivett, like Hardinge, saw demand for their toolroom lathes drop sharply after the war. The 1R was an attempt to keep the factory in business until orders for the big stuff recovered. They were designing the big expensive 1020, which was introduced in 1953. The 1R was an all new design in the Art Deco style, unlike any other watch lathe before or since. I have two and will take some pictures later. A unique feature at the time was a sealed ball bearing spindle with the drive pulley cantilever mounted on the left end.

Rivett started out in the late 1800's making watchmaker lathes in Boston. They were in competition with American Watch Tool in Waltham, the originator of the popular Webster Whitcomb lathe design. Rivett lathes were more expensive, so they did not sell as well. The AWT watch lathe line was later bought out by F.W. Derbyshire, still in business in the Boston area. I heard that Derbyshire eventually bought out the remains of the Rivett watch lathe business. Wade bought out the AWT large machine line and is also still in business in the Boston area.

The old Rivett watch lathes used collets that did not fit any other make of lathe. The Webster Whitcomb collet design were eventually used by almost every watch lathe maker in the world. Derbyshire still owns the name Webster Whitcomb, but Levin in Los Angeles called their collets of that type "WW" and the name caught on.

So, in the late 1940's, almost every watchmaker was using WW collets. Rivett had no reason to try to revive their obsolete collet design, which they had not made for decades. Instead, they wisely decided to make their new 1R lathe use WW collets. Perhaps as a marketing trick, they made their own WW collets and marked them "1R."

The 1R lathe did not become popular. It must have been priced higher than the Marshall Peerless lathe, which is the most commonly found lathe of that period. UK Tony's lathe site says five or six hundred 1R's were made. My 1R's are serial number 89 and 451.

L Vanice, I've never replied to a 15-year-old thread before, but here goes. I have a Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe - serial number unknown, I'd have to unbox it to see. I bought it years and years ago but never bothered to do anything with it because (1) no Rivett 1-R collets, and (2) I would want to overhaul it and generally clean it up first. Anyway, your comment seems to imply that any old WW-style watchmaker's lathe collet will fit the Rivett 1R drawbar and spindle. My main collet set is for the Rivett old-model 2B lathe, but I think I might have a couple of WW collets laying around somewhere. I'm going to have to go see if they fit my 1R drawbar & spindle.
I hope you see this, L Vanice. If not, maybe some other Rivett fanatic will see it and comment.
 
L Vanice, I've never replied to a 15-year-old thread before, but here goes. I have a Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe - serial number unknown, I'd have to unbox it to see. I bought it years and years ago but never bothered to do anything with it because (1) no Rivett 1-R collets, and (2) I would want to overhaul it and generally clean it up first. Anyway, your comment seems to imply that any old WW-style watchmaker's lathe collet will fit the Rivett 1R drawbar and spindle. My main collet set is for the Rivett old-model 2B lathe, but I think I might have a couple of WW collets laying around somewhere. I'm going to have to go see if they fit my 1R drawbar & spindle.
I hope you see this, L Vanice. If not, maybe some other Rivett fanatic will see it and comment.

In the intervening years, it has been brought to my attention that the Rivett 1R collets have a slightly different thread than the .275-40 thread on the WW collets. But I have forgotten what the Rivett thread dimensions are.

I have never used my Rivett lathes, so had no occasion to try a WW collet in one. Both lathes have their original cardboard collet boxes with the lathe serial number written in the lid and a fairly large set of 1R collets. I do have a handful of extra 1R collets.

The first 1R lathe I bought was originally owned by a professional hand engraver who may have had a watch repairing hobby. It shows very little sign of use. I think he quickly replaced the Rivett with a very well-tooled Derbyshire WW lathe on a roll-top bench that was not for sale when I visited the engraver's heir.

I posted pictures of my lathes on a different thread, but will add them to this thread, in spite of the poor title that makes it useless in a search.

Larry

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I always understood that the 1R Rivetts were different enough that WW collets might work with some fudging on the drawbar but the body diameter is bigger(?) on the 1R so concentricity suffers with a smaller bodied collet. Something like that. That plus the fact they didn't have collet holding tailstocks kept me from buying one, though I'm a big Rivett fan and love the design.

-just did some digging before posting and it seems early Rivett watchmaker lathes used a 0.300" collet, 7.62mm, and the 1R is 0.315", 8.001mm. So 1R collets would bind in a quality* WW (or B8) spindle, which would have a bore bang-on 8mm, but with a proper drawbar work just fine with "regular" collets.

*the Peerless Larry mentioned above have in my experience had the sloppiest bores of all watch lathes. I always figured it was to accommodate the largest number of collet makers and collets with burrs raised on the body from manhandling etc. When I started out most watchmakers I met who _had_ a lathe had a wire brush chucked in the spindle and they chuckled when I asked about making parts. These were often Peerless lathes. Marshall, their parent, offered some serious machines under the Marshall name.
 
In the intervening years, it has been brought to my attention that the Rivett 1R collets have a slightly different thread than the .275-40 thread on the WW collets. But I have forgotten what the Rivett thread dimensions are.

I have never used my Rivett lathes, so had no occasion to try a WW collet in one. Both lathes have their original cardboard collet boxes with the lathe serial number written in the lid and a fairly large set of 1R collets. I do have a handful of extra 1R collets.

The first 1R lathe I bought was originally owned by a professional hand engraver who may have had a watch repairing hobby. It shows very little sign of use. I think he quickly replaced the Rivett with a very well-tooled Derbyshire WW lathe on a roll-top bench that was not for sale when I visited the engraver's heir.

I posted pictures of my lathes on a different thread, but will add them to this thread, in spite of the poor title that makes it useless in a search.

Larry

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L Vanice, thanks for your comments and pictures. The 1R in the picture appears to be in great shape, except for the tailstock knob which has been replaced. Missing or replaced red plastic knobs seems to be the norm for the 1R lathes, and I've only seen one photo of a 1R with all three knobs intact. The choice of red plastic seems to have been an innocent mistake on Rivett's part, but understandable because in the era they were introduced, plastic was apparently a "big thing".

Your comment about the 1R threads being "slightly different" from WW-style dimensions is particularly interesting. An Oregon-based Rivett friend of mine told me that he can replicate Rivett collet threads (older-style pre-1R collets) by using a .275-40 spring die with the adjusting bolt either a hair extended, or compressed (I forget which). EDIT: I forgot that my friend's method of replicating Rivett's OS watchmaker collet threads is in the first file I uploaded here.

Rivett's habit of creating their own proprietary dimensions seems to force brand loyalty on their customers, but might have had a negative effect in the long run. One of Rivett's own factory blueprints for spindle taper reveals that they created their own taper close, but not exactly the same, as then-existing spindle tapers.

Your 1R collet set looks to be in excellent shape. I made a set of Rivett OS collet dimensions just for my own amusement some years ago, based on the average of each dimension of my full set (#1 to #80). It would interesting to do the same for the 1R collets, since one man's idea of "the same" might be different from another's. Here are the dimensions I made in Microsoft Paint.
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...so, what I'm gathering here is that if I want collets to fit my Rivett 1R watchmaker's lathe, I'll have to acquire a bunch of 1R collets!
 








 
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