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Need Help With Old Whitney No. 6 Horizontal Milling Machine

Mad Dad

Hot Rolled
Joined
Aug 1, 2002
Location
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Hi all,

I have a Whitney no. 6 horizontal milling machine I need help with. I can not remove the shaft that holds the cutters. I thought it was just a taper type fit that was wedged into the spindle. I've tried everything to get it loose, including heat, a rod and hammer (taping on the back side through the spindle), soaking in Croil and even a slide hammer. Is there some secret to getting this shaft off the machine? Is it maybe threaded on? Help!
 
Hi all,

I have a Whitney no. 6 horizontal milling machine I need help with. I can not remove the shaft that holds the cutters. I thought it was just a taper type fit that was wedged into the spindle. I've tried everything to get it loose, including heat, a rod and hammer (taping on the back side through the spindle), soaking in Croil and even a slide hammer. Is there some secret to getting this shaft off the machine? Is it maybe threaded on? Help!

Removing a stuck arbor from a horizontal mill.
1) We are assuming the arbor has a self locking taper that has been in place for a while.
Even a NMTB can lock up with a bit of dry oil and some rust.
2) You have tried heat, penetrating oil, and brute force.

Assess what is holding the spindle in place.
Do you have other spindle tooling laying around for the machine to examine? That would be a good place to start.

Most mills use a drawbar that passes through the spindle to the arbor, assuming yours has one, remove it and examine the condition. If it’s badly rusted, then there is a good chance everything on the front end is as well and rust is probably your problem. If you think rust is the issue, phosphoric acid will attack it. Phosphoric acid is the active ingrediant in navel jelly. Its also found in the metal conditioners sold for automotive paint jobs. In this case I would want something thinner than navel jelly. Heat is another good choice.

No draw bar or hollow spindle means some other means of retaining the arbor. Does the arbor have wrench flats? Does the spindle have a locking system? If so, apply a bit of a twist and see, but don’t break anything. I would not expect to see a thread in type arbor on a mill, because most are expected to run clockwise or counterclockwise.

Is there a large spanner nut on the spindle, like an L series lathe nose?

Look at the back end of the spindle. Is there a set of left hand external threads on the spindle? If so, there was probably a capture nut of some kind that allowed the draw bar to function as a jack screw and push the arbors out.

You can tap an R8 or NMTB taper loose. Morse and B&S tapers require a bit more help. Beating them out is poor form and can damage spindle bearings.

Other options beyond those tried.
Assuming you have a hollow spindle, you could run a NPT tap into the back end and mount a grease gun to the machine and use it to push the spindle loose. The grease will push out radially on the spindle and loosen the fit in addition to pushing axially on the spindle. Grease gun hoses and pipes usually have 1/8” NPT fittings, so you can mount up directly, without a zerk. Placing a broom handle or dowel in the spindle prior to pumping in grease will reduce the amount of grease needed. Use a good thread sealer and steel fittings. Grease guns put out a surprising amount of force.

Dry ice and gasoline, or liquid nitrogen can be used to cool parts and shift them around. This technique is popular with the antique gas engine crowd for freeing pistons. They work with larger diameter parts, but you might try it. Cool the shaft, heat the spindle and see if it frees up.

You have already tried hammer and bar and slide hammer, so the bearings are probably in sad shape now.

Place a heavy T bar on the arbor and use jack screws or a pair of bottle jacks between it and the frame to push it free. You need to be carefull you dont jack the spindle out of the casting or dammage something you dont want to.

Pull the entire spindle and arbor assembly and find someone with a hydraulic press to push it apart.
 
Bigger hammer on the loosened drawbar. A bar used like a drift will just bounce. I had the same problem with an old Brown & Sharpe - tried being gentle but that didn't work. I found that it had plain tapered bronze bushings, so with that knowledge and with tears in my eyes, I smacked the drawbar (loosened a turn or two) with a short handled 20 lb hammer. Not a full swing, I choked up on the handle near the hammer head and gave it a whack. Thud. And another whack, harder. Thud. One more and pop! out she came. I use a little tiny pipe wrench to install arbors, and that same 20 lb hammer to remove them (much gentler whack). 100 year old machine.
 
I posted a picture from a Popular Mechanics Shop Notes in post # 46 of this thread .
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ontal-mill-tyngsborough-ma-113611/index3.html
That may be another option for you .
You would want to make sure that the arbor isn’t threaded in there somehow before trying too hard at this.
It would be safer to have the overarm support in place to avoid bending the arbor when tightening the nut if you can .
Regards,
Jim
 
Man...

I'd REALLY like to know what the interface was going in so I could choose the right plan of attack. If its not a taper, you can beat and bang till you break something and it won't come out. Too bad the company never printed any documentation, and you seem to own the only one in existence... OK, that might sound snarky, but it wasn't meant to be. I know how it feels to be at a loss for information. It's just hard to believe that the info you need is not out there... somewhere...

Once you get it out, I think many of us have learned not to tighten tapers very much... :crazy:
 
Well...

He got his arbor out, but it seems he never learned how to use his camera. Kind of a waste in terms of any documentational value, other than we now think it is a taper. Why do people even bother?... :toetap:


Not sure what you are talking about RedlineMan? I still have not been able to remove the taper, if that is in fact what it is. I'll post pictures if I ever figure out how to get it apart. So far - no luck.
 
Sorry I am indirect sometimes.

I was responding to the OP (at the beginning) "Is it maybe threaded on? Help! " and to Redlineman's comment "If its not a taper, you can beat and bang till you break something and it won't come out."

I've had to hammer a taper out of a mill with a lot more force that I thought I needed to apply.

It's a good chance it's a taper. JimB
 
ahall - you were exactly right on! There is a spanner nut on the other side of the spindle (pulley side - it was covered in grim and impossible to originally see). I was able to loose the nut and now the entire spindle moves in and out about an 1/2", but the taper is still 100% stuck. The pulley is very odd looking and I can't figure out how to remove it yet without damaging the entire machine. If I can't remove the pulley there in no way to remove the spindle assembly. I've owned over 100 metal working machines in my life, some very old, but I have never come across anything like this.
 
JimB -no worries. I somehow missed reading your post above. I wonder what he means about "tapped on the small end with a wooden hammer."? Is he possible referring to using a long rod to reach through the spindle? Thank you for your help! This group is awesome!
 
If your machine is similar to the Brown and Sharpe machine in this thread maybe there is a nut of some kind in the end of the pulley that is stopping it from coming off .
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/b-s-0-mill-w-pictures-115557/
Joe P. has some good photos of the spindle assembly there .
I realize yours isn't a B&S. machine but many machines used a similar setup.
If you were able to post some pictures of yours it some one might be able to solve the puzzle.
Regards,
Jim
 
Mad Dad, Yes usually a threaded rod supplied with the mill, thread are on one end or both ends that threads into the arbor to tighten it. Easy to over tighten. If you stick a plain rod up in there to contact the backend of the arbor and hammer the rod you could damage the taper and/or send the taper onto the table and/or onto the floor. Just be careful. I have a more modern arbor that uses a nut to pull out the taper on the front of the mill. Jim
 
Edit

I might suggest another tack - loosen, don't remove completely the drawbar. I made a bushing on the lathe that would just slip over the shoulder of the arbor and rest against the face of the spindle - the cutter rested against this bushing. Put a largish diameter cutter on the arbor close to the machine end of the spindle, then I stacked up spacers and tightened the bejeesus out of the arbor nut - thus putting a force on the face of the spindle which wanted to pull the spindle out. Put a hunk-o-scrap on the table. A little vibration from cutting and a few whacks on the end of the drawbar and she came. I left off the overarm support when I did this, I figured better to wreck an arbor than the machine. I have a horizontal with the dreaded BS9 taper that gets stuck worse that it's twin for some reason - this worked, and no purple fingernails this time. Arbor survived too.

Sorry if this is not totally clear, I've been pulling some crazy OT and a bit tired.

Edit no. 2, I aint so smart after all - see post 46 in this thread.... http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/b-s-horizontal-mill-tyngsborough-ma-113611/index3.html
 
Last edited:
Not sure what you are talking about RedlineMan?
Sorry;

Point by point;

- JimB tries to be helpful and posts a link to a thread where a guy has the same problem with at least a similar mill.

- The guy asks the questions, gets his taper out, is asked by JimB to post pics, says he will, and disappears.

I say that is not a whole lot of help from an informational standpoint, for those searching for similar info. Other than now knowing it likely is a taper you are dealing with, his dead end thread doesn't help you or anyone else out much, does it? If you are going to ask others to help you and give you information, when you figure it all out, it would be nice if you provided some detail about what you learned so that people like you searching for answers in the future have something they can use. Pay it forward!

Capisce?

Good luck with your arbor!
 
Once you get it out, I think many of us have learned not to tighten tapers very much... :crazy:
Let me be clear about this too, just in case...

Before I knew better, I got the taper in my mill stuck so bad I had to bash the draw bar with a 10lb sledge, and HARD, to get it out. I was scared to death. It came out. I was able to straighten the draw bar. DON'T grease the taper, and DON'T crank down the draw bar when you install the arbor. Any of us who have done dumb things like that sure remember it!
 
ahall - you were exactly right on! There is a spanner nut on the other side of the spindle (pulley side - it was covered in grim and impossible to originally see). I was able to loose the nut and now the entire spindle moves in and out about an 1/2", but the taper is still 100% stuck. The pulley is very odd looking and I can't figure out how to remove it yet without damaging the entire machine. If I can't remove the pulley there in no way to remove the spindle assembly. I've owned over 100 metal working machines in my life, some very old, but I have never come across anything like this.



Humm, spanner nut an now the spindle assy moves half an inch.

Sounds like cone type brass busing that adjusts the main bearing seat.

Still, it sounds like you want to get the pulleys free from the shaft, So what binds them together.
Older dive systems with a mid shaft pulley are usualy key and set screw or cross pin.
Get a few cans of cheep break cleaner and some generic paper towels and hose off all the gunk.
Look for set screws that have snapped off and pins that are filed and worn flush with the pulley surface (these can be particulaly hard to spott, so get out the drop light and look it over good).

If that fails, you have some other type of lock system.
A old practice was to taper the drive key. Little giant trip hammers did this.
The parts are set in place and then the key is driven in, much like a gib head key, but with no head.
The recomended practice for a trip hammer is to push the head farther onto the shaft, which loosens the key, and then pull the key.
Its a bit tricky to find, but some measurements of a key way will tell you if that situation exists.

Keep you eye on the ball. If getting the pulley off likely to break it, stop and look for a different plan of attack on the arbor.
 
I think its the number 10 B&S thats truely dreaded. At least you can find collets and tool holders in #9 a few places.

My gorton also has the #9 taper and it gets quite tight. The spindle is set up with a cap nut that provides a push shoulder in addition to the pull shoulder so with a few turns of the wrench and the draw bar will push the collet out. Much better than wacking it. If you can add that arangement I recomend it highly for any self locking draw bar taper.
 








 
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