Need a Nebel 1308 microturn toolroom late for <$1K?
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  1. #1
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    Default Need a Nebel 1308 microturn toolroom late for <$1K?

    Not mine, and I am posting it here to hopefully keep it that way. Looks like a heck of a lathe with a wide speed range. Competition for the Monarch 10EE I presume.

    Link to Craigslist ad:

    Lathe NEBEL 1308 - tools - by owner - sale

    Link to Brochure Don posted a while back:

    NUCLEAR TOOL ROOM LATHES

    Attache photos for posterity sake.

    nebel_mt1308_lathe_ad_2.jpgnebel_mt1308_lathe_ad_1.jpgnebel_mt1308_lathe_ad_3.jpgnebel_mt1308_lathe_ad_4.jpgnebel_mt1308_lathe_ad_5.jpg

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    References to Nebels seem to always list their locations as being on the west coast - maybe it's just the particular references I've come across. Comments have always been very favorable. Dr. Holland appears to have a lot of firsthand information and documentation about these lathes.

    I have never seen a Nebel but from photographs the crossslide & compound look to me to be undersized with respect to the robustness of the rest of the machine. I'm sure though that they must be adequate for the designed work envelope. Nebel does not appear in Tony's index of lathes.

    -Marty-

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    I was just looking at that post on CL. Looks interesting for sure, research on here says delicate planetary gearing in headstock.

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    Thatís an insanely good deal, assuming it works. Basically a long-bed monarch 10ee with a larger swing and D1-4Ē spindle. Also the vari-speed drive is a self contained mechanical unit, so way easier to deal with than a monarch.

    I own one of these and indeed it does have planetary gears in the headstock, but I donít see how theyíre in any way fragile. Itís also very convenient to shift between backgear and open belt; you just push a button on the headstock.

    The crossfeed is relatively short, but also wide. Iíve side-by-side compared it to that off my rivett 1030F and a 10ee. Itís heavier built than both of them, although as noted different profile.

    The Z powerfeed lever is missing on the carriage and itís missing the sheet metal cover for the rest of the crossfeed ways. It also appears to either be missing the taper attachment or never have had one.

    Iím preparing to sell my Nebel only because my Rivett is better tooled, and suffice to say it will be listed for way more than $1k. Even still Iím struggling not to buy this one on principle.

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    if electricals on the Nebel Microturn are functional, this is a find ranking with McLaren F1, Ryan Navion, Mercedes Silver Arrow

    driving force behind the exotic electromagnetic planetary headstock spindle cartridge was General Electric Corp Atomic Power Equipment Department established 1955

    the Microturn lathe I owned was bespoke modified for Hanford Energy Works--GE was prime managing contractor in the 50's-60's

    my machine was re-homed to PM member Halcohead--and likely enjoys continuing admiration as representative of the hay day of american precision tool production

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    I does not look like this lathe has power hooked up.
    I guess "delicate" was not the right word to describe planetary, I read this old JHOLLAND post and am cautious about getting a non running lathe with unobtanium parts to replace.

    Original old thread I got the quote:
    Nebel micro turn lathe

    Quote Originally Posted by JHOLLAND1 View Post
    I had one for about 5 years. Unique because of the planetary headstock. Spindle motor ran thru a Cleveland variator-- a transmission which is still made. It also had a back gear. If you cannot put it under power, expect the worst. The head stock cartridge and 3 electro-magnetic clutches may be toast. A dedicated pressure pump was essential to survival of this machine. Practical Machinist member "Halcohead" bought my Micro-Turn. Send him a pm. Also, do a search of past posts.

    jh

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    Pipe threader's dream. Both 11 1/2 and 27 threads/inch.

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    Long time listener, first time caller. Looks a little scammy to me. Itís also posted in the Bakersfield CL. Seems like if someone was going to the effort to list it multiple times theyíd provide SOMETHING in the listing about it.

    Hope someone gets a deal, donít get scammed.

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    Nebel was the successor, the late 1930's if I recall correctly, to Rahn-Larmon. I have several pieces of earlier Nebel literature and a fine circa 1915 Rahn-Larmon double back geared well tooled originally and stil, lathe, that i bought from my family's Philadelphia iron works in 1985. It was listed also in a 1951 appraisal of the iron works. Good machine. I think Nebel is probably mentioned on lathesuk under one of the Rahn predecessors.

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    Ok, so the Nebel ad has been deleted by the seller.

    Did anyone here buy it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crrmeyer View Post
    Ok, so the Nebel ad has been deleted by the seller.

    Did anyone here buy it?
    I have it now.
    A construction guy bought it at local auction, knew nothing about it, or lathes in general, wanted to run of a VFD, and maybe tried, not sure. Had no 3 phase. He had it for a month or two. So I took a gamble and got it not under power. Really was hard to consider passing it up after reading what Halcohead and JHOLLAND1 said in posts 4 & 5.
    I was able to spin it by hand and it moved and power feed worked. No bad noises from anywhere while turning it over and it moved smooth and easy so I bet the mechanics are good. (except broken gear)
    The little pinion gear that moves the carriage L&R is broken. Hard to see in there but it looks like it split open at an internal keyway. Just need to catch up on a few things and get the apron off and have a look-see in there.
    The missing sheet metal cover is in the pan. No taper attach, not sure how to tell if it was removed or if it never had one?
    No visible wear on the ways at all. no nicks or scrathes or ridge, all seemed very good.
    Everything looked original, really nice and un molested except the left lever for starting, been replaced with a piece of all-thread. Easy to put that back to being correct, Just a rod with threads on each end.
    440 only motor so I need to get a transformer to be able to run it. Found a few locally that might work...Know more when the guy with them gets back and can look at tags.
    Looks like a very special motor so no it can be swapped out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I have it now.
    .
    .
    440 only motor so I need to get a transformer to be able to run it. Found a few locally that might work...Know more when the guy with them gets back and can look at tags.
    Looks like a very special motor so no it can be swapped out.
    Good to see it get into a pair of hands with an inquisitive mind attached. Kudos!

    Motor swap for a machinist as can deal with adaptors & such is never impossible, but leaving it alone in favour of a wire and forget commodity transformer will be far less work and risk.

    "600 Volt Class" disconnect and/or mag starter for it, 4XX secondary side - the Nebel already is. Sort-off, anyway. For its "era", IOW.

    Your end only 300 Volt class yah put a disconnect, CB & c. on the primary side, so "do the obvious".

    Two transformer KVA per motor HP is overkill, but it is the sort of overkill that JFW, least hassle, no heat issues, and no choking-up on performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Good to see it get into a pair of hands with an inquisitive mind attached. Kudos!

    Motor swap for a machinist as can deal with adaptors & such is never impossible, but leaving it alone in favour of a wire and forget commodity transformer will be far less work and risk.
    The motor is a pancake looking thing that is integral to the Cleveland Variator "gearbox". Looks to about 16" in dia and about 8" long. drive motor/gearbox is installed under the headstock with the motor end in first. It is very tight in there so a motor change would be a fair bit of work. Gearbox is rated for 5hp so is likely a 5hp motor, 3hp was also provided on these. Could not read the tag, it is facing straight up with 1" space or so above it, under headstock floor. Some mirrors and bright lights may help...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    The motor is a pancake looking thing that is integral to the Cleveland Variator "gearbox". Looks to about 16" in dia and about 8" long. drive motor/gearbox is installed under the headstock with the motor end in first. It is very tight in there so a motor change would be a fair bit of work. Gearbox is rated for 5hp so is likely a 5hp motor, 3hp was also provided on these. Could not read the tag, it is facing straight up with 1" space or so above it, under headstock floor. Some mirrors and bright lights may help...
    May need a mirror for that 1". I use the ones at the autoparts store sold for repairing cracked OEM's. Also cheap "dental" mirrors and Poor-Lady store cosmetic/"compact" ones. Less hassle than robbing the Wife's good ones. Jest tell her in advance why you HAVE such goods - so he dasn't think you've gone a scoutin' alternative blanket-sharers.

    In general, put yer cellphone or a small digital camera on any half-decent "selfie stick".

    Bein' a skosh uglier than Gawds older brother for wear and tear, I ain't yet, nor plan to EVER do any "selfies".



    But that cheap telescoping stick and a tiny Nikon Coolpix has saved me a TON of contortions and guesswork arredy.

    It could, for example, be LOVELY if the motor turns out to be re-connectable for 230 VAC, not 440-only!

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    Nicely done, I think you'll be very happy with the machine. I'm glad you bought it too, I really don't need another lathe but was very tempted. I always liked the tailstock on these; stoutly built and easy to use. Also lots of travel and a slot for using a drift on stubborn tools. The bedways on these were hardened, which might explain the lack of wear.

    The motor on mine is 5hp, and will trip a 20A 240 3phase breaker when starting up on high speed. It will also eventually overheat a 20A breaker when doing lots of heavy cutting. I don't remember whether I put it on a 30A or 5A breaker but all problems went away.

    I don't remember if mine was labelled 440V or 240V, but it's definitely native 240V now. I have the manual and it may say something about swapping over. Otherwise I would strongly recommend just getting a transformer. There are 5-10 relays etc in the control cabinet on these.

    If the crossfeed works fine and the screw is not telescopic, I would guess it didn't come with a taper attachment. On mine with the taper attachment the crossfeed screw *is* telescopic. FWIW the taper attachment on these is nice in terms of being smooth and having long travel. It's not as elegant as a Monarch however.

    While you're replacing the pinion on the apron, I would advise installing a larger Z handwheel. My biggest gripe about the Microturn is the carriage handwheel is a bit small compared to a 10ee or Rivett.

    Don't bother using a Sjogren/handwheel style collet chuck on these. The spindle brake is aggressive (although you can weaken it by turning a knob in the control cabinet). So much so that the handwheel comes unscrewed when stopping from high speed unless it's very tight. I always thought the well-integrated spindle brake on these made them a good candidate for an ELSR style stop system. The integrated spindle brake also makes broaching keyways with the carriage relatively easy.

    You may find the rotary knobs for the QC gearbox difficult to shift when the machine is stopped. It took me a while to realize the gearbox is meant to be shifted while the machine is running, just only while in backgear (<300rpm). With the spindle turning shifting gears becomes easy.

    I welded a handle to the side of a 9/16" 6-point, 3/8" square drive socket to make a combined carriage lock/compound angle adjust wrench for my Nebel (the 3/8" square fits the carriage lock, while the other side fits the compound lock nuts). Has been very convenient for a few years now. Much more convenient than the Monarch, Rivett, or Hardinge style compounds where you have to reach under the compound ways with an open-end wrench to get to the nuts that lock the angle.

    Good luck and have fun with it.

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    Rob F

    single most important function in process of startup is verification of pressure lube pump perfusion at pressure great enough to trip permissive relay next enabling spindle motion ---7 t0 15 psi iirc

    check resistance of all electromagnetic spindle clutch windings prior to first application of power---remove all acess panels and inspect windings etc

    i rewired my unit from 440---220 and then passed along to Halcohead

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    To add to what JHolland said, don't turn on the drive motor with the headstock cover off at anything but the lowest speed. It'll fling oil, even if the spindle itself is stopped.

    To check oil behavior, pull back cover, put carriage control lever in lowest position (oil running, spindle motor stopped, all clutches off), turn on machine (top right button on control panel), then look in back to ensure there is a separate stream of oil dripping on all three clutches. You shouldn't need to have the cover off for actually running the spindle, but if you do make sure the variator is at its lowest speed, unless you want oil stripes on the wall. I think there's also oil plumbed to the spindle bearings, but it's been a while since I looked in there.

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    Thanks guys, I will follow these posts closely once I get the transformer to be able to run it. I will check and top up all oil sumps before trying to start.
    Next is to look for a d1-4 5C collet nose. I might have a small lantern post to use for testing purposes in the near future. The spare CXA and 4 way I have for the monarch 16 I'm sure are way to big.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Thanks guys, I will follow these posts closely once I get the transformer to be able to run it. I will check and top up all oil sumps before trying to start.
    Next is to look for a d1-4 5C collet nose. I might have a small lantern post to use for testing purposes in the near future. The spare CXA and 4 way I have for the monarch 16 I'm sure are way to big.
    The better finished of my two 5C key-crankers is a H&H Industrial item on D1-3
    The CDCO one on a plate (for 4-J use, intentional offset, but collet-repeatable) was from CDCO.

    "Good enough" to take advantage of the raft of cheap and cheerful 5C goods, given I'm otherwise a 2J, Rubberflex, ER, TG, or Burnerd Multi-Size fan.

    2J you should find easily on D1-4. Hardinge "loop"-closer (one here..) better than Sjogren (2 in 2J), but heavier and wants a skosh more hang-out.

    Shoot me the dimensions you want on a 4-Way.

    I sort of provide a safe retirement home for them as if they were old soldiers fallen on hard-times! And because they have gone so CHEAP these days since QCTP's started making hobbyist's dicks grow so huge before even they had figured out how to light a lathe up, let alone which end of it was meant to be put in their mouth!

    Or maybe not so much?


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    Thanks thermite, I will get some measurements to see if you have a 4 way that might fit. I have near a complete set of 2J collets fot the 16" monarch's sjogren closer, as well as a set of 5C collets that came with something. Seems easy to get a D1-4 5C collet closer, I could just as easy use a 2J closer but that may not be as readily available.


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