O Power hammer, Power Hammer, what the heck art thee Power Hammer?

I have been learning metal shaping for the last year or so. Nearly all my work has been done using a sandbag and hammers. Sometimes, if I feel very patient, I migh try and do some work using my Harbor Freight Tools beginner set of crappy metal shaping tools.

At this point in my education I don't really need more equipment except for one problem. My right arm is starting to hurt in a way that my doctor says will only get better when I stop hammering on things. So now I guess I'm in the market for a power hammer long before I have the skill to use one. But what the heck, I would rather die broke than with only one arm.

Now I thought I knew what a power hammer was, but after some research I am as confused as ever. Heck,I don't even know if I am posting in the appropriate forum!

What I have found is that almost every machine that pounds metal is called a power hammer, and yet they all seem very different to me in both how they function and the type of metal worker who uses them.

So far I have seen them called:

• Reciprocating Hammer Machine
• Nibbler Machine, that I have never seen used to actually nibble metal.
• Power Hammer
• Drop Hammer
• Mechanical Forging Hammer
• Open Die Power Forging Hammer
• And for light work possible use of a planishing hammer - which I already own a crappy version of.

I also see them lumped into group based on who uses them:

• Generic metal formers, whatever that means
• Hot rod builders
• Blacksmiths
• Sheet metal men
• Coach builders
• Artists

Good enough you would think except all these different types of craftsmen seem to significantly cross over in terms of what kind of machine they use.

Then there are how the machineS “look” and apear to operate. There appear to be:

• Little Giant types of machines.
• Junk hammers which resemble Little hammer machines
• Pullmax, Eckold power hammers, Yoder, Thrumpf, etc. type machines.

On some of the above machines you can tell their rough principle of operation if they expose that, but many do not. Nevertheless I understand them to fit into roughly the following groups of theory of operation.

• Hydraulic
• Pneumatic with external compressor,pneumatic with compressor built in
• Mechanical reciprocating through the full up down cycle
• Mechanical with mechanical retract only(of Hydraulic, Pneumatic), and downward force provided by gravity.

Even among all those choices are there are: little ones, medium sized ones, huge ones, and gigantic ones.

The one and only thing they all seem to have in common is that they range in price from outrageous to astronomical.

Now all I want to do is shape some metal for God sakes. Do some light art, a car hood scoop or two, a few things for my locomotive, maybe a custom fender some long day off in the future when I get better at this art form.

Ohh and one more thing, due to their price (both the machine AND THE TRULY KILLING COST OF THE DIES) I need to build whatever I pick. I'm not too worried about this part because I have a cnc mill, cnc lathe, conventional lathe and mill, the reluctant to use financial means to have things laser or waterjet cut, and a 4x8 cnc plasma cutter I can borrow.

I just need to know what the heck to build, keeping in mind that the simpler the machine the better because my hobby is sheet metal work, not building power hammers.

So what the heck givers with all this power hammer schizophrenia?

Ohh, and I know of the smallest nibler Pettingell built for sale for $700, and it needs a full rebuild. Should I get that before somone wanting to be the next super rich motorcycle builder grabs it?

Sorry for the long post.

If you are only working with sheet metal you might want to look at an English Wheel which is used to form complex shapes in sheet metal. One of several uses is to form wheel covers on aircraft. Hand hammering sheet metal can also be done by hammering metal on pitch instead of sand. The learning curve is rather steep.
As for power hammers they are used for forging larger solid pieces of steel into the desired shape for machining or hand finishing. As a gentleman in our blacksmith group cautioned about power hammers,"A 25lb hammer can bruise you, a 50lb hammer can injure you pretty good and a 100lb hammer can kill you without much effort. This gentleman had a lifetime of experience forging using 10,000lb and above steam hammers."

Bob
WB8NQW

blcksmth said:

If you are only working with sheet metal you might want to look at an English Wheel which is used to form complex shapes in sheet metal. One of several uses is to form wheel covers on aircraft. Hand hammering sheet metal can also be done by hammering metal on pitch instead of sand. The learning curve is rather steep.
As for power hammers they are used for forging larger solid pieces of steel into the desired shape for machining or hand finishing. As a gentleman in our blacksmith group cautioned about power hammers,"A 25lb hammer can bruise you, a 50lb hammer can injure you pretty good and a 100lb hammer can kill you without much effort. This gentleman had a lifetime of experience forging using 10,000lb and above steam hammers."

Bob
WB8NQW

Click to expand...

The Op is referring To a Yoder or Pettingell style hammer made for forming large sheet metal panels......not a drop hammer for forging!

Here’s a very good reproduction to give an idea;



To the op, you may want to go over to All Metashaping forum, plenty of sheet metal experts to help with your questions.

Kevin

Fairbanks made a mechanical sheet metal hammer that bolts to an I-beam, cute little ram. runs really fast.

I am not going to brake my resolution to never recommend a little giant 25, this might be exeption. The best hammer for plow disc, and thin stock. 'Like an mg you feel on top of the world when it is running - right', quick fast like a bunny. The little giant has obscene cost for sentimental reasons and it is written in the charter of moving metal guild you have to have at least one as first hammer.
For same or fractions more you can get a Turkish self contained hammer (less than 20 yrs old)- simple to work on and can move serious metal with control to crack pecans. The dies last near forever, and you will find that you only need 1 to 3 sets - I have never changed (resurfaced 2x) out my little giant dies (drawing dies), neither did previous owner, or the two before that. The air hammer I change more frequently, but mostly keep flats in it and use tooling. I do use some combo fuller/flats as second most frequent. That said the air hammer is not as good on sheet thickness work, slow bpm.

thin your normal hammer handles near the head to down 3-4 inchs- a lot more than you think is ok- do not death grip the handle and the handle will remove the shock eating your arm. 4.5 inch grinders are the death of blacksmiths wrist and arm, not hand hammers.

there is a lot of confusion between power hammers for blacksmithing, which start at 25 pound ram weights and go up to thousands of pounds, versus planishing hammers for sheet metal.

There were more blacksmithing hammers made, so even with increased interest, they are easier to find.

There were very few Yoder or Pettingell sheet hammers, and they are much harder to find today, and expensive.
They are two completely different beasts.

Not sure how, If you have a CNC mill, which can easily run $50,000 to $200,000, you would think a planishing hammer for a couple grand is so expensive- but for light work, you can pretty easily buy one from Grizzly or Baleigh or similar suppliers for not that much money.

I would second the recommendation to buy or build an english wheel first- its a good next step from shot bags and forming dies.

I also think you should invest 25 bucks in a copy of Metal Fabricators Handbook, by Ron Fournier.
He runs thru all the basic tools, techniques, and materials, in a relatively simple book with lots of pictures.
Product Details

I took a workshop from him, and subsequently built a small sheet metal working setup, including an english wheel, and can do just enough to get myself in trouble. A small planishing hammer might be in my future, too...

900 bucks, made in china, but they work- Pneumatic Planishing Hammer | Power Hammer | Baileigh Industrial

If your doing sheetmetal and need stretching machines or shrinking machines check this place out.

Machines | ECKOLD

Ries said:

I took a workshop from him, and subsequently built a small sheet metal working setup, including an english wheel, and can do just enough to get myself in trouble. A small planishing hammer might be in my future, too...

Click to expand...

how did your wheel turn out? where did you source the rollers (if that is what they are called?)?

As said before, pop over to Allmetalshaping, and take a look at tinmantech.com for some quality plans for machines. Ben's Mechhammer is another good machine to look at. Don't know if he does plans or just machines. Eckold is the gold standard, but at monsterous prices. Pullmax equipment can be had, with a significant amount of tooling at less cost than a bare Eckold.

If you can happen onto an older Chicago Pneumatic CP450 riveter, they can be converted to work thinner materals.

Basically, one shrinks or stretches the victim material until it fits (or pleases the eye) the underlying structure. Here we have some .017" (?) material getting near to fitting on Tom's from scratch 1931 Lockheed Altair DL-2A. The big red monster of a machine has its way with the material assuming it is under control of a master at this.

The red beast is set up to shrink one side and stretch the other. Ex U.S.N Carrier - one supposes for instant fix battle damage on the aircraft

There are eight of these "gores", each about 18" X 23 feet. Note their edges sit in "tees" - custom extruded from LAC drawing - that get another rivet each inch and a quarter

Hey John,

Do yo have a link to the Lockheed project? That is just plain awesome. Those bulkheads are works of art.

IMHO - Nothing is more visually pleasing than the 1930s-era racing/sport planes (The Granville Bros. Q.E.D. being perhaps my favorite).

Citxmech said:

Hey John,

Do yo have a link to the Lockheed project? That is just plain awesome. Those bulkheads are works of art.

IMHO - Nothing is more visually pleasing than the 1930s-era racing/sport planes (The Granville Bros. Q.E.D. being perhaps my favorite).

Click to expand...

Nope. Tom just works his tail off (in two locations 500 miles apart!) and there is no one to make a web page. Been doing it since 2004

memphisjed said:

how did your wheel turn out? where did you source the rollers (if that is what they are called?)?

Click to expand...

I bought the kit from Metal Ace, and it works great. I dont use it all that often, but when I need it, its there, patiently waiting. Yup, it was a fair amount of money- I built mine 15 years or so ago, so it was around $1100, versus $1700 now, but with all the parts made, heat treated, and known to work, its only a couple days of cut and weld, and you have a usuable tool. I have friends with a pile of parts that are gonna be an english wheel, and, ten years later, still arent...
http://www.metalace.com/product/44f-u-weld-english-wheel-kit/

Ron actually had a $35,000 Eckold on the shop floor when I was there. And it is a sweet machine- but very specialized- A well tooled Eckold these days could easily run $50k, and take a year or two to get good on. If you get paid to make parts for 2 million dollar ferrari's you need one.
But a couple grand invested in an english wheel and a planisher made from an air tool will allow most people to do a lot of work, and cost less than a new F250.

Can you post a photo of the Pettingell that is for sale?
Add helve hammer to your list. John

blcksmth said:

If you are only working with sheet metal you might want to look at an English Wheel which is used to form complex shapes in sheet metal. One of several uses is to form wheel covers on aircraft. Hand hammering sheet metal can also be done by hammering metal on pitch instead of sand. The learning curve is rather steep.
As for power hammers they are used for forging larger solid pieces of steel into the desired shape for machining or hand finishing. As a gentleman in our blacksmith group cautioned about power hammers,"A 25lb hammer can bruise you, a 50lb hammer can injure you pretty good and a 100lb hammer can kill you without much effort. This gentleman had a lifetime of experience forging using 10,000lb and above steam hammers."

Bob
WB8NQW

Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

When you saw pitch do you mean tree pitch, tar, etc. Or somthing else?

Will do Kevin. Thanks for letting me know about them.

memphisjed said:

Fairbanks made a mechanical sheet metal hammer that bolts to an I-beam, cute little ram. runs really fast.

I am not going to brake my resolution to never recommend a little giant 25, this might be exeption. The best hammer for plow disc, and thin stock. 'Like an mg you feel on top of the world when it is running - right', quick fast like a bunny. The little giant has obscene cost for sentimental reasons and it is written in the charter of moving metal guild you have to have at least one as first hammer.
For same or fractions more you can get a Turkish self contained hammer (less than 20 yrs old)- simple to work on and can move serious metal with control to crack pecans. The dies last near forever, and you will find that you only need 1 to 3 sets - I have never changed (resurfaced 2x) out my little giant dies (drawing dies), neither did previous owner, or the two before that. The air hammer I change more frequently, but mostly keep flats in it and use tooling. I do use some combo fuller/flats as second most frequent. That said the air hammer is not as good on sheet thickness work, slow bpm.

thin your normal hammer handles near the head to down 3-4 inchs- a lot more than you think is ok- do not death grip the handle and the handle will remove the shock eating your arm. 4.5 inch grinders are the death of blacksmiths wrist and arm, not hand hammers.

Click to expand...

I'll take your advice and thin down those hammers tommorow.

A Greek guy using a Turkish hammer? Might have to do some convincing with my grandmother ��
Seriously though I did not find anything on my internet searches about Turkish Hammers. Any other name I should search on?

There are several brands of Turkish Blacksmithing power hammers, which are NOT sheet metal hammers.
Many Turks have been "guest workers" in Germany for maybe 50 years now- and a few turkish family metalworking businesses basically copied the Kuhn german power hammers at least 20 years ago. There are areas in Turkey where metalworking goes back for 2 millenia, and they kinda have it in their blood.

The two best known brands are Say-Mak and Sahinler, both of which have been sold in the USA for 20 or 30 years now.
Home of Say-Mak power hammers in the US

Sahinlers are no longer being imported, but there are dozens of em here.
Sahinler is currently a very big company in Turkey that makes all kinds of brakes, presses, ironworkers and rolls, but I dont think they are still making power hammers, though. https://www.sahinlermetal.com/en/index

There are undoubtedly a few more Turkish companies making hammers, they just dont get sold here.

Again, these are all forging hammers, not sheet metal hammers for cold working sheet like you want.
My guess is there ARE turkish made sheet metal hammers, though- they make almost every kind of metalworking tool you could imagine.

I actually have 2 friends in Washington State who own the little 25 pound "little giant" style hammers that ARE specifically for sheet metal- They may or may not be Fairbanks, I dont know. These are just the hammer ram, springs, and motor- they are not mounted on cast iron bases. They are meant to have the anvil mounted on the floor, freestanding, and the hammer mounted from the ceiling, making the throat depth the same as the size of the room.
Neither of my friends have their hammers installed and running now, but neither is for sale, either.

These are pretty light duty hammers, and were mainly used for tank ends, and especially brewing equipment- when you need an 8 foot diameter copper dome for the top of a beer brewing vessel, this is how you make it. Nowadays, of course, all that equipment is stainless, and its usually just pressed or spun.

These hammers are extremely rare.
Both of my friends have owned theirs for over 20 years, and I have only heard of a couple of others ones still around in the whole USA.

My guess is you will not happen across one.

I may have a picture of one in my collection of old catalogs, but I am not in the US right now. When I get home, I will try to look.

Bags for hammering sheet metal into are usually filled with sand or lead shot.
I bought shot by the pound from a gun store that sold reloading supplies.
I chose shot because I feel that sand breaks down into dust from the repeated bashing.
My 25 Lbs. bag was sown together to my specs by a shoe repair shop. I also filled a small clutch (hand bag, purse etc.) from a Good Will store with shot. It's useful as weight and easy to take to the work.

If you do a lot of bag work look into building a helve hammer. It will save your arm.

Remember that sheet metal shaping and forming machines will have considerable throat depth.

john worden said:

Bags for hammering sheet metal into are usually filled with sand or lead shot.
I bought shot by the pound from a gun store that sold reloading supplies.
I chose shot because I feel that sand breaks down into dust from the repeated bashing.
My 25 Lbs. bag was sown together to my specs by a shoe repair shop. I also filled a small clutch (hand bag, purse etc.) from a Good Will store with shot. It's useful as weight and easy to take to the work.

If you do a lot of bag work look into building a helve hammer. It will save your arm.

Remember that sheet metal shaping and forming machines will have considerable throat depth.

Click to expand...

actually i switched over to steel shot, not lead, about 15 years ago. Its probably just a bit safer than lead.

The three main sellers of books and tools are a good place to learn about this stuff-
Kent White - The Tin Man, TM Technologies
Covell Creative Metalworking
FOURNIER ENTERPRISES INC: {English wheel, Metal Shaping, Metalwork, Metal}

Fournier and Kent White both sell shot bags, and lots more.