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Off-Grid Line Shaft Machine Shop and Generator

Ozark Machinist

Plastic
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Location
Arkansas, USA
Sorry if this is the wrong place for a post like this, but it seems like the most fitting.

I've got this idea in my head that I could set up a water wheel to run both a generator and line shaft machine shop. That in mind, I was wondering if anyone had advice or ideas on fabricating a speed governor on the wheel shaft to give a more constant speed. I've already got an idea involving a mechanism not unlike a gramophone governor with centrifugal weights and a sliding ring that works against a heavy coil spring on the shaft. On top of that, a split collar that can be clamped down in different places to increase or decrease spring tension, acting as a speed adjustment. Does anyone see any problems with such a design? Is the entire idea a fool's errand? I'd love to get some advice.
 
Sorry if this is the wrong place for a post like this, but it seems like the most fitting.

I've got this idea in my head that I could set up a water wheel to run both a generator and line shaft machine shop. That in mind, I was wondering if anyone had advice or ideas on fabricating a speed governor on the wheel shaft to give a more constant speed. I've already got an idea involving a mechanism not unlike a gramophone governor with centrifugal weights and a sliding ring that works against a heavy coil spring on the shaft. On top of that, a split collar that can be clamped down in different places to increase or decrease spring tension, acting as a speed adjustment. Does anyone see any problems with such a design? Is the entire idea a fool's errand? I'd love to get some advice.

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i believe running a generator (even if water powered) then using the electricity through the wires to run motors is more efficient. if generator is making DC charging batteries and a inverter running off batteries then that makes a far more consistent AC coming from inverters running off batteries
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early water wheels and steam engines were like 5% efficient or less that is most of the power was lost through friction and heat losses. a line shaft to transmit power probably cost much much more to setup than just using a electric wire to a small motor
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some factories have electric bus bars along ceiling beams like a overhead crane uses. they clip on wires connected to bus bars where they need power. sort of like a electric line shaft
 
Oh, I'm sure it would be much more efficient to run motorized machines off of a power bank. But I pretty much just want a line shaft shop for the sake of cool factor. Also, I'm wondering if, assuming a water wheel was spinning freely at roughly 25 or so RPM, and reduced to 15 by means of governor, would I see an increase in torque?
 
Oh, I'm sure it would be much more efficient to run motorized machines off of a power bank. But I pretty much just want a line shaft shop for the sake of cool factor. Also, I'm wondering if, assuming a water wheel was spinning freely at roughly 25 or so RPM, and reduced to 15 by means of governor, would I see an increase in torque?

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spiral bevel gearing was developed partially for water wheels where you wanted to change direction and increase rpm smoothly. the cost of line shaft and gearing and water wheel will probably a large amount. like better to save money in a retirement plan and be a multi millionaire rather than have a cool looking shop and be poor in money when older.
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sounds like you need a less expensive hobby and less expensive adult toys to play with
 
Would take a pretty big wheel and a lot of water drop to make enough consistent power. Probably better off powering the shaft by either a hit-n-miss, an oilfield engine or a small steam engine. The enviro goobs get pretty weird when you talk about changing water natural water flows.
 
Look up the "Fitz" water wheels for the last of the high efficiency water wheels. Fitz wheels were used for driving both line shafting and electric generators.

Woodward Governor, one of the leading builders of governors for all sorts of prime movers (as well as aircraft applications) got their start with a grist mill and the need for a waterwheel governor.

The ballhead assembly from an old phonograph is a governor, but the force it produces is way too small and of too low an amplitude (range of motion) to govern a waterwheel. Waterwheel governors typically had large flyball heads similar to steam engine governors. If you wanted to use a phonograph governor, you'd have to do the following:

1. Increase drive speed from the waterwheel shaft to the governor

2. amplify both the force and the range of motion of the ballhead to provide sufficient force/range of motion to work a control gate on the flume of sluice to
the waterwheel.This was done by mechanical mechanisms driven by the waterwheel shaft (usually friction clutches to open/close the control gate using
a feed screw or rack-and-pinion), or by oil hydraulics with an accumulator tank (air-over-oil) to provide consistent pressure/flow volume to handle large
gate moves.

3. Provide a handwheel to open the control gate initally so that the wheel built speed and went "on the governor".

4. provide an overspeed trip to close the control gate in the event of a broken belt or sudden tripping of the generator (dead weight to close the control gate
being a favorite and simple)

5. probably add an oil dashpot to dampen the governor response so that the governor was not responding to miniscule speed fluctuations and over-correcting the
gate position.

A waterwheel turns slowly and is essentially a large flywheel. It responds slowly to gate position changes. An AC generator requires precise governing to maintain frequency in a stand-alone installation. Governing a waterwheel to provide 60 hz AC current can be done, but it is probably more trouble than it is worth for a small generator, let alone also running machine tools. A direct current generator producing current to charge a battery bank driven by waterwheels was pretty common in old stand-alone installations. The battery banks served as load levellers, and provided power for times when the wheel was not running. A lot of small waterwheel installations on mill ponds used "peak-and-pond" mode of operation: let the pond fill to full head overnight, run the wheel by day (i.e.- peak load) when there was work to be done in the mill. Even big hydroelectric plants use the peak-and-pond mode in many locations. With the battery bank and today's inverters, you can use DC power and solve several key issues at one time:
-no need for precise governing of the wheel
-60 hz power will be produced
-reserve power will be on hand for times when the wheel is not running

There are some loopholes intentionally in the various regulations for what are known as "micro hydroelectric plants", but I do not know anything further. A type of turbine which may be worth exploring for your application is a "cross flow turbine". Good efficiency at very low heads, and buildable in small sizes, and simple to build. Only a single control gate is used to control the flow of water into the runner (the wheel in a water turbine is known as a "runner").

I come out of the hydroelectric plants, still work on them, and volunteer at Hanford Mills, a historic working mill using both water and steam power. Ages ago, as a professional engineer, I was asked to help with the design of some new Fitz wheels which drove induction generators. Induction generators are not stand along generators, but can be easily made using an induction motor driven by the water wheel. The idea is to provide power into the motor shaft and use the grid power for excitation and regulation. I worked on one hydro plant where we put in three induction generators of 1 megawatt apiece.

FWIW: the design of governors is a science unto itself. We used to send our mechanics and engineers to "governor school" when Woodward Governor was in Rockford, Illinois. Even setting up or maintaining a ballhead/hydraulic governor was something of an art. We went over to digital (electronic) governing in the hydro plants, and we miss the ballhead/hydraulic governors for a variety of reasons. Of course, it gives us license to joke that "our governors lost their balls" when uptight stiffs from corporate or political types were in earshot.
 
Have you looked at Joel Sanderson's "off grid" lineshaft shop at:

Joel Sanderson - Sanderson Iron

Driven by an old oil field engine. I've seen it and it's beyond cool if the cool factor is what you want! Just another idea on how to power a lineshaft shop, and ideas on a lineshaft shop itself if nothing else. :)

Irby
 
if trying to impress a girlfriend or wife you would do better with money spent on a new car like a tesla rather than a water wheel and a line shaft
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just saying if married and the wife finds out you want to spend money on a water wheel and line shaft rather than buy her a new car she will not be "cool" about it. or spend money on a new modern house with fancy stuff like granite countertops, ceramic or wood laminate floors and other stuff she can brag about to the other wives. guaranteed wife not going to be bragging about the water wheel and lineshaft
 
Oh, I'm sure it would be much more efficient to run motorized machines off of a power bank. But I pretty much just want a line shaft shop for the sake of cool factor. Also, I'm wondering if, assuming a water wheel was spinning freely at roughly 25 or so RPM, and reduced to 15 by means of governor, would I see an increase in torque?

Hobbymachinist.com might just be the place for you then....
 
I think you'll have some fun working up the transmission- which would be very cool- the lineshaft rpm should be 200-ish, so you'll need loads of torque off the wheel to trade for rpm. Some years ago I participated in a cleanout of some lineshaft equipment from the basement of an old grain mill that had run from a waterwheel outside. There was an extensive gear system inside, including IIRC a 6' diameter bull gear now half sunk in in the mud.
 
I think it would be a fun project. I am the 3 rd. Generation in our family line shaft shop. Back in the late 60s we had a disagreement with the power co. and ran the shop from a 4 cylinder continental engine, about 5 gallons of gas for an 8 hour run. Also generators for electric. If anyone is interested it is on YouTube under tonopahtreasures part 1,2,3.
 
Oh, I'm sure it would be much more efficient to run motorized machines off of a power bank. But I pretty much just want a line shaft shop for the sake of cool factor. Also, I'm wondering if, assuming a water wheel was spinning freely at roughly 25 or so RPM, and reduced to 15 by means of governor, would I see an increase in torque?

This sounds like a really fin project. Some have commended on the economic folly of such a project but at the end of the day, how you choose to sped your time, talent and treasure is entirely up to you. Having said that, and with respect to your question the governor's effect on torque, it would be useful in this case to establish an upper bound on how much power you can generate. Energy is the ability to do work, work is a force acting over a distance and power is work per unit time. For your water wheel, i recommend you study the power you can get out of a water wheel as a function of water mass flow rate, wheel diameter, wheel "bucket" volume etc. You may find that to generate 5 HP you need a huge wheel and this may help your decision process. Another thought is build a scale model and learn how to scale the results up. All of which may save you some time and effort if your project proves to be more ambitious than you anticipated.
 
I appreciate all the replies, folks! Seems I've got myself a lot to think about, including whether or not to bother with a governor mechanism at all. At this point, my plan would be to fabricate a water wheel out of rough-sawn lumber from the property using a tow-behind bandmill, leaving me with just the bearings and shaft that would need to be bought. A lot to think about, indeed.
 
Hydro is soooo old, 17th century, and environmentally irresponsible (keep up with the greenies latest rantings)….:skep:

Make a "minto wheel" and power it the sun....:D

This is 2020 now.....
 
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I've spent a major portion of my career as an engineer working in and on hydroelectric generating plants of a wide variety of types/sizes. I've also been around a few waterwheels over the years.

A wooden waterwheel, while picturesque, is one of the most inefficient ways to use water a power source, even if that "fuel is free". You do not say whether your site lends itself to an overshot or undershot wheel. If undershot, then a wooden wheel would be a pretty good choice. If overshot, a higher efficiency wheel with curved buckets such as the "Fitz" wheel would be the ticket.

Most waterwheel driven mills used some form of "speed increaser" gearing between the wheel shaft and the mill's lineshafting. Waterwheels turn quite slowly. Usually, a cast iron bull gear was mounted on the wheel shaft or on the wheel itself. This bull gear turned a much smaller pinion on the first shaft into the mill. Something like about 1:15 speed increase was typical. The bull gears were usually not machined and ran "as cast" teeth against the pinion. Plenty of gear lash and plenty of grease and this arrangement worked for generations of people without needing any parts replaced.

Most of the waterwheel driven mills did not bother with a governor. Rather, the miller or sawyer (if a sawmill) had a handwheel or lever to open or close the gate on the flume or sluice supplying water to the wheel. As load came on the machinery in the mill, the gate was opened as needed and then throttled down or closed when the job was done with. A lot of sawyers and millers went as much by the sound of the saw or millstones and "feel" of how things were running.

A waterwheel has a lot of stored inertia, so once turning, however slowly it might be, the wheel tended to even out the rpm a bit when load changes were small. Something like sawing a log in a sawmill would pull down the rpm and the sawyer would open up on the flume gate as the saw lugged down.

The bearings for the old mill wheels were usually babbitted pillow block bearings (plummer blocks in the UK). Some of the old mills ran hardwood bearings for the wheel shaft and also for some of the low speed shafting. I've done a bit of engineering work with a shop that builds re-creations of old mills and repairs existing ones, and have seen quite a few different designs. The other piece of "elegant engineering" was the use of cast iron gearing with inserted hardwood teeth. Typically, a low speed gear would be made up using this combination, and the hardwood teeth would run on the teeth of an "as cast" pinion gear. It made a long wearing and quiet set of gears. Often, a set of moulder knives would be made up to mill out a length of hardwood for "gear tooth stock". Teeth were then sawn off and inserted in the cast iron gear body.

On a few of the Fitz wheel jobs I was involved in, we used roller chain and sprockets to connect the wheel shaft to a jackshaft and increase the speed. From the jackshaft to the induction generators, we used timing belts. These were Fitz wheels made of steel plate, and were erected in some town parks where there was existing water flow and head to run them. The wheels ran pretty much unattended, and the induction generators "floated in the grid" and pumped in a little power to offset the meter reading for lighting of the parks and ballfields.

If you build a wheel, you will need to build some sort of sluice (open flow channel) to direct water onto the wheel. You will also need to build a sluice gate to control or shutoff the flow of water to the wheel. A simple sliding gate made of wood is adequate, but allow for the swelling of the wood gate in the guides or grooves. Often, the sluice gate was worked by a simple lever arrangement, made of wood, and the lever could be pinned in a number of positions to set gate openings for given loads and heads. The other variable with any hydro plant or water wheel is head. If the plant is "run of the river", such as a dam on a river of consistent level (barring flood conditions, spring freshet, or drought), the head behind the dam is usually fairly consistent and some spillage over the crest of the dam is typical. On a "run of river" type situation, a wheel could run continuously. If the mill is built on a mill pond fed by smaller streams, then the "peaking and ponding" mode of operation is used. Typically, the wheel is not run at night, and this allows the streams to fill the pond up so there is ample water and head to run the wheel the next day. As the day progresses, the pond level is pulled down by the flow thru the wheel, and more gate opening is needed (with more flow at the lower head) to make the power needed to run the mill or do whatever work is required.

Water power is quite interesting, and there are extreme times when a river goes to flood stage, or ice jams break loose, or a log jam of floating debris clogs the forebay of a plant. Then, there are such niceties as various stuff like water chestnuts and grasses that come downstream to block or obstruct flow into a mill or hydro plant. Been there, dealt with all of the above. A trash boom goes a long way to keeping floating debris (limbs from trees, whole trees uprooted by flooding, basketballs, old tires, plastic jugs, chunks of rigid foam that broke loose from someone's floating dock upstream...) out of the headrace.
 
I stopped at an old mill outside Cherokee NC years ago.It was driven by a turbine of about 5hp.The water feed was a wooden trough from up stream and had about 10-12 feet drop to the turbine in the mill house.
The placard said that most water wheels were being replaced by turbines in the late 1800's due their efficiency,if I remember correctly.
 
This small water wheel powered a blacksmith shop.
It ran an old wooden bed lathe and I'll guess the forge blower.
It is the smallest wheel I have seen, at 48 inch diameter and 18 inches wide, so no idea what else it may have powered.

I saved the gears and clutch shaft from being melted down in a foundry and have always thought it to be for a water wheel.
It came from an area heavy with rapid rivers and water powered mills.
The 9 inch pinion has 22 teeth, and the 20 inch bull gear has 48 teeth, so a 2.18 ratio.

Mike

water wheel.jpg
water wheel clutch.jpg
water wheel pinion.JPG
 
A LONG time ago I read an article highlighting a guys professional woodshop running antique tools. It was probably a woodworking magazine... The shop was on an island in the middle of a river somewhere in the east. Entire shop ran off of a water wheel. What stuck in my memory was the guy had a good sized table saw and said he could not slow it down or bog it, unlike the electric equivalent. A large paddle wheel powered it. Probably read that around '82 +- 5 yrs?
 








 
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