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Joe in NH

Diamond
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Stratham, Cow Hampshire
95664491_10159632851768056_6756944654324727808_n.jpg


Facebook Marketplace: Antique Industrial Cast Iron Machine Base - Antiques & Collectibles - New Bedford, Massachusetts

$850

Too bad. It was worth a lot more before all the important parts were removed.

Joe in NH
 
It almost looks like this may have been an earlier small planer. You can see where the bridge bolted to the bed. I wish was closer but money is tighter in these time. I would still save it from becoming a kitchen table. It also has a shaft at the drive end and holes where the shaft may have been on the far end. Possibly a chain planer.
 
That may be the table (platen) lying on the ground. One wonders if he has the bridge and rails somewhere else.

The bolts on the end may have been for "brackets" for the chainwheels.

Pix of Roberts planer (Engish) below. It was the model for many like this. The handwheel (X) doesn't necessarily have to be in the middle using a chain. (not like a rack/bull gear on the bottom of the platen.)

roberts-planing-machine-for-metals-picture-id90742038


One respondent here is absolutely ga-ga about machines of this era (1830s-early 40s) I'm surprised he has not surfaced.

Joe in NH
 
Might that be the table on the ground beside it ?
If it wasn't driven by a rack but a crank disk like a shaper perhaps that is a connecting rod of some kind beside the table ?
Maybe some more of the parts are nearby out of sight.
Jim
 
Thank you for replying. I feared I had pissed somebody off - I know this pissed me off. And not my intent to shock, critique in anything but a general way, or accuse anyone of anything. But it is what it is. To a hammer all things are a nail, and this one is bigger than 20d - and worth more. The nail seller's price says that much anyway.

And - if we don't bring these historical insults to view, then someone who has never seen one will not know - and the disaster can happen all over again. Those who are not aware of the mistakes of the present are doomed to repeat them in the future (take on Santayana.)

It is not just a thousand pounds of scrap. It is our industrial heritage which many without knowledge or appreciation of what technology has brought us would tip over in a heartbeat - like so many statues.

This one not tipped, but starting to tilt mightily.

It almost could be brought back if we knew more of what it should look like. Machines of this ilk are not that complicated, precise, or difficult to re-create. And with so little to go on, someone would have free range to "invent" with no chance of critique on accuracy.

And maybe that is the problem. It is a "project." And not a small one.

Joe in NH
 
It almost looks like this may have been an earlier small planer. You can see where the bridge bolted to the bed. I wish was closer but money is tighter in these time. I would still save it from becoming a kitchen table. It also has a shaft at the drive end and holes where the shaft may have been on the far end. Possibly a chain planer.

Too late to save that one.
What else can it be with so many major parts missing?
 
That almost has the look of being made in a smaller shop .
The legs are comparatively light and almost look like wrought iron or steel than a casting at least by what I can see in the picture.
I can’t go there or take on any projects right now but there is certainly some history that will be lost there if nobody saves it.
If the machine were taken apart to move it the other parts may have been considered not worth selling .
As Joe suggests it looks like an other piece of industrial history may disappear.
Maybe someone who is on Facebook could contact the seller and see it there are any more parts or if there is a back story about the machine.
Regards,
Jim
 
Facebook Marketplace will not open to you directly on starting a facebook account. Rather there is a "delay" until you demonstrate a confirmed interest (Multiple accesses to the site?) or a period of time of perhaps a week.

This done to prevent "scammers" and "harvesting."

I am now in both - it took total a couple of weeks.

Joe in NH
 
By the looks of all the other junk in the photo the seller may have just salvaged what you see - and someone else took it apart to make it easier to bring to the skip
 
That does look like that very well is the platen laying on the ground. This planer fits many lathes and planers built in the 830s to 1840s era. Many of the early worcester builders used that design of bed and legs for thier machinery.i have too many irons in the fire currently and too expensive to go that far to retrieve. This is one of the very few pre 1850s metal planers to still exist.

Early Worcester lathe to compare.
FS: Early Chain Lathe

It also is similar to the woodburn and light 1848 lathe at the Rough and Tumble.
 
I have waited to respond to this as I have been in contact with the seller.
He has this on ebay too. He lowered the price to me a little.
He said he has no other parts for this and this is the way he got it.
I have yet to find out when and where he got it.

This is indeed a very early planer. The oldest I have seen.
I also believe that is the table on the ground.
I am not sure if it was chain drive.
The legs are cast iron. The bolts on the end, that Joe is talking about, are the bolts that hold the legs on.
These are typical legs used on very early american machines.
It is not unlike this planer from the Treatise on Planers by the Cincinnati Planer Co., but I don't think it was hand drive.

Treatise on planers, practical information and suggestions ... - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library | HathiTrust Digital Library

The book say that parts of this planer in fig.1, came from England.
I think that is wrong. This is an american made planer.

I think the parts for this planer are or were still around.
I don't think someone originally took this apart to just use the legs and bed for something like a workbench.
Probably it was taken apart to move or to store or to start cleaning it.
As noted already, some of the drive parts are still on the bed.
Also the four bolts and nuts (two on each side), that held the uprights, are still there.
This is not something you put back after taking the uprights off if you are going to scrap them out.
You only put the nuts and bolts back in the holes to save them.
The table looks to be in good shape, so it was not used as a workbench.
It does not look as if the uprights have been off for to long.

If I were closer I would go look at it and try to find out more from the seller as to where he got it.
I am still trying to find that out from him.

Rob
 
Given the positioning of the "bulkheads" between front and rear planer shear, I would say this planer did not have a bull gear, as this is best placed directly under the tool at mid-way along the planer length. Otherwise the platen can't get full stroke for its length, or runs off the bull and stops.

Not to say that the bull gear might not be offset and the platen similarly offset from it's rack. The rack would have to extend past the top surface. But I can't offhand remember any planers like this.

The possibility of this being a crank planer is a bit remote, at least in part because of the bulkheads, and certainly the general lightness of construction. And while the gearing (what we see) is at one end, there doesn't seem to be any supporting framework to position a crank-shaft appropriately for attachment to the table by connecting rods. Still, one wonders about the rod nearby the platen.

Good luck in the pursuit Rob. Like the Brown & Sharpe Universal Mill No. 7 that Ed Battison glommed onto from the field in Maine grown over to trees. "This one needs to be saved" he said. "There is only one No. 7 in the world and we're looking at it - probably one of the first group Brown & Sharpe made. And that alone makes it worth saving."

If you need someone to get this and keep it until you can arrange pickup, I could do this. It would be outside, but I have a rubber cover. But then again, it's outside now and likely has been there a while.

Joe in NH
 
I did notice that the planer that Rob linked has a notch at the bed end to clear the rack where as the marketplace unkown planer has no notch. That is a nice early puzzle and I wish you luck on saving it.

Found this in American Machinist. Similar legs it seems to be. Too bad there was not a better view of it.

_20200702_160033.jpg
 
Perhaps if the seller could provide some additional pictures particularly from the other side and the under side of what appears to be the platen we could have a better idea.
The bed ways look to be less rusty between the first and third cross ties from the left hand end the would be almost the length of what may be the platen .
Perhaps an early version of something like this although maybe not open side .
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ner-342695/?highlight=Open+side+Shaper+Planer
This one was made in Mass . so they must have gotten the idea somewhere.
Although not ideal perhaps the crank was on the far side and the connecting rod attached to the side of the table ?
A slot in the crank disk might have allowed some adjustment of the stroke as we might find on some power hack saws.
Jim
 
Found this in American Machinist. Similar legs it seems to be. Too bad there was not a better view of it.

Um. Ken Cope in his Planer book attributes this to "Fales & Jenks" - a Rhode Island producer from the 1840s and later. This would be nearly identical to a planer which was in my ownership but which ended up as "scrapped" (I've promised Rob Lang that I would not bring this up but given where we are and for consideration I'll go ahead.)

That planer was identical to the pix above the legs - but the legs on mine were considerably different - certainly in more modern style/form. They were attached by "end bolts" such as Rob describes.

The legs still exist with another collector who had need for workbench supports. I could get pix but they won't add to the discussion. I have the triple matched pulleys. Funny, they are perhaps 14" diameter but all of 3" face - a "generous" pulley considering the era this planer is thought to have been produced. In fact the planer would best be described as "sturdy" - certainly outweighs my current 4' x 20" no-name.

The F&J planer was very degraded after a generation at least in a Maine field grown to trees. The platen had been off and a tree had grown up through the bed. Ed Battison had no clue as to maker, thought it might be British which is possible considering its proximity to Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. It was only in the publishing of Cope's book that ANY information has come forward. And given your source maybe this could be in question?

I have examined today information on David G. Fales & Alvin Jenks. Previous information I have cited included claim at least one of these was a Brit emigre, but todays look on the Internet is not seeing that. Both Fales & Jenks were American from long previous lines and them and the company are widely written in online Biographies of various kinds. Fales & Jenks were primarily a textile machinery manufacturer. Machine tools may have been a sideline.

So if you have it handy, check that American Machinist and see if they give indication to maker? I did think of the scrapped planer when I saw the "TV Stand." Same square bed shears.

I do regret the scrapping of that planer. The mid-1980s were different both informationally, and in the amount of loose metal/machine tools/ephemera that could be found. I still wish I had done more with a "find" of early machine tools at "Tater Machinery" in North Leominster, MA in which about 1977 I found my current "no-name" planer. I think of the Pratt & Whitney double spindle "profiler" I saw there (just like in 1879 "Modern Machine Shop Practice") and other now treasures of 19th century engineering. At the very least the scrapped Fales & Jenks could have been "yard art" - paint it flat black and it would be an improvement over where it had been for at least a generation before.

Joe in NH
 
I'm no help as this one's on the wrong side of the map for me, and though I hate seeing historical machines like this stripped and put into the "decor" market, I'm happy to see you guys collaborating to POSSIBLY save it.:cheers:

History is only popular in short bursts, but it can vanish permanently and quickly if we're not careful. To many doubt the practicality of preserving history until it's needed and no longer there.
 
Fales and Jenks were both said to have been mentored by David Wilkinson. They manufactured textile machinery as you said but also machine tools. There is a engraving of a lathe by Alvin Jenks built in 1833. Also an engraving of a horizonal boring mill and drill along with a special crank planer for planing pump buckets both built about 1833 the article states. Later on they got into manufacturing rotary pumps.

The first American planer is said to have been hand built by Edward Bancroft who later became partners with William Sellers. It was said that the bed was chipped and filed by hand. It also may have been a copy as some information had said he copied a British planer that was imported. I am unsure the accuracy of some of the information but it is an interesting story.The location of the first built was the Builders Iron Foundry In Pawtucket that operated into the 1900s.

One last quote about the first planer...
" It is said that the first planer ever to run in New England was set up in these shops. It would take work about three feet square and of considerable length. It had wooden shears, hand chipped V’s and most of the iron work was imported. It was screw driven, and later the Builders’ Iron Foundry engaged in the manufacture of planers, using the same drive, one of which is still running in the shop"
 
CNC,
Have you had any luck finding out any more information as to where the owner got this machine and if the parts are still around? This would be a great piece if the parts could be found... I’m sure if the parts are sitting somewhere that time is of the essence.
 
An update on this planer.

I am doing a slow burn on this.
I was going to get this until the seller told me that he did not have the upper parts.
I then changed my mind and decided to pursue this after all.
I figured that it had the legs, bed, at least some of the drive and the table.
I have a planer from the Ford Museum auction that has the upper parts that would be similar to this planer.
I figured that if I could not trace down the missing parts, I could use the Ford parts as patterns and have castings made.
I told the seller that I was still interested and asked for some more pictures.
I asked for a closer picture of the bed and a picture of the other side of the bed.
Also a closer picture of the table and if possible the under side of the table.
He responded that he did not have the table. I asked what happened to it.
He then told me that the original picture was from the owner before him and that when he bought it, the table wasn’t there.
That pretty much killed that. I was no longer interested in it, but I did not tell that to the seller.
I still asked for the other pictures of the bed.
He responded, "I’ll take the pictures when I have time." That was six days ago and no pictures yet.
I get a kick out of some of these stupid sellers.
If I lived nearby I would go there and look at this in person and try to find out who had this before him.
I think that person might have had all the parts and maybe one could trace them down.
This is rather sad that what we have here was most likely the oldest American planer, still in existence,
having survived for 170 to 180 years until now only to be gutted out.

Rob
 
I'm with you Rob. Of course how much of our industrial history went to scrap because "someone didn't know?"

I know. I'm one of them. When you enlist the best possible mind at the time to your aid - and he can't help - the game is pretty much up. Or it was for me then.

We're just unfortunate because now we know better - and we just happened to see this one on its way to "repurposing."

Sometimes knowing these things can be a real downer.

Joe in NH
 








 
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