oil cups and oils...

I have been following the threads on here regarding oils etc with interest, which only serves to remind me how much I don't know... so I thought I'd ask the collective expertise here for its opinion/recommendations.

The pics below show the headstock oiling points for my three lathes (Lorch, Relmac, Gamages). The Lorch has what can best be described as a 'grease nipple' in one oiling hole and nothing in the other. The others have nothing fitted.

The question is this: what should be there in each case to support lubrication, and what lubricant would be applicable? (remember I am in the UK so US brand names mean little here, I need the generic products)

The 4th pic shows a nicely maintained Portass S, on which the Gamages is based, which sports brass (?) oil cups. Are these right/typical and, if so, where would I get them (or would I have to fabricate and if so, how best to do so)

oil cups

Interested in what oil is best too, but will post a pic of what I have done, it was cheap and easy, and can be modified to be something better when the lathe is going.

they are just standard brass fittings from the plumbing suppiles, a small end to screw in to the bearing and a big end to hold oil with a screw cap to keep dust out.



eventually, ill get some brass tube and turn the threads off to fit, and silver solder them together then make a cap of some kind.

my bearings hold oil now, with all the new bits, i'm very pleased about that, as mine had greese fittings too when I received it.

*EMMA*

PS. sorry bout the blurry pics.

I would say spindles like that should either have wick feed, or drip feed oiler.

The wick feed ones are commercially available and are basically a large reservoir
with an inner standpipe. There is a pipe-cleaner type wick that is inserted into the
standpipe and then the other end dropped into the pool of oil in the annular
reservoir.

I made some for my seneca falls machine, based on the ones that were in my
pratt and whitney bench lathe. If you purchase a commercial one you will
get the idea of how they work. The other advantage of the wick feed type
is the oil is filtered by the wick so an particulates stay at the bottom of the
reservoir. The disadvantage is that the oil flow cannot be shut off. The wick
runs until the cup is dry.

Another good type is the drip feed. These have a glass reservoir and are
adjustable and can be shut off. Some of them can be shut off, and retail
their drip rate adjustment for the next time they are needed.

The zerk grease fitting on the lathe in the photo is probably a former user-induced
error. Often zerk fittings are installed when bearings have deteriorated, or
when the original oil cups get their feed passages clogged.

Jim

miss_emma_jade said:

Interested in what oil is best too, but will post a pic of what I have done, it was cheap and easy, and can be modified to be something better when the lathe is going.

they are just standard brass fittings from the plumbing suppiles, a small end to screw in to the bearing and a big end to hold oil with a screw cap to keep dust out.

eventually, ill get some brass tube and turn the threads off to fit, and silver solder them together then make a cap of some kind.

my bearings hold oil now, with all the new bits, i'm very pleased about that, as mine had greese fittings too when I received it.

Click to expand...

So Emma, if I understand this right what you have is an oil reservoir open at the bottom which relies on the bearing seal to retain the oil in the reservoir - as oil migrates out of the bearing it flows in from the reservoir.

This is sort of like what Jim calls a drip feed except without the glass reservoir. How big is the hole through to the bearing itself, are we talking capillary sized or bigger?

I was thinking of a temporary solution based on 15mm copper plumbing pipe, a solder-on end cap, drilled 5mm and some 5mm (3mm ID) copper pipe soldered into that, wrapped with tape to make a tight fit in the oil holes and a dust cover of cling-film (food wrap), for the purpose of seeing how fast the oil migrates out of the bearing. I was planning to use some SAE30W synthetic engine oil (cos I have lots in the garage! - if its good enough for my 50,000 rpm 400BHP turbo at 830degC I'm sure it'll be OK here for test purposes!). Not sure how that stuff would wick though, not totally clear what sort of wick we are talking about, I found these pics on McMaster-Carr site for wicking and non-wicking oil cups:


but here in the UK the only examples I can find on the web after a quick google are from model engineering shops and I'm not sure if they are suitable, e.g. or these wicking ones

I would go with the wicking ones per this illustration at the top of the page....like my Waltham :-)

http://www.lathes.co.uk/waltham/page5.html

The wick provides a pumping action which brings the oil to the journal. Additionally, the wick naturally filters the oil keeping the bearing clean

The wick is the candy cane looking item in the center touching the journal.

Worsted (spelling?) wool makes the best wicks.

You can tie the wick to a wire and withdraw the wick when your not using the lathe so your oil cup doesn't empty out as the wick will siphon the cup dry otherwise.


Dave

Dave, Thanks for that - the diagram has helped understand what the wicking one looks like inside.


Well this afternoon I experimented with a clear drinking straw full of oil pushed into the oiling holes on all 3 lathes. The rear bearing on the Gamages and the Lorch hold oil, but all the other bearings lost about 2" of oil from the straw in a few minutes or quicker so looks like I need to replace the bearings .

Think that'll be the subject of another thread... once I've stripped them down.. done bearing replacements on cars and bikes, but thats been a trip to the shop to buy the right oversized shell for the crankpin etc. I've no idea how to do it from scratch, another new skill to be acquired

....Well this afternoon I experimented with a clear drinking straw full of oil pushed into the oiling holes on all 3 lathes. The rear bearing on the Gamages and the Lorch hold oil, but all the other bearings lost about 2" of oil from the straw in a few minutes or quicker so looks like I need to replace the bearings ."


Not so fast, what are the bearings doing? what is their function?

Lots of plain bearings run just fine with perceptable clearance. I wouldn't use the argument above to determine if any bearing is good or bad. Inspection of the journals and measurment of clearances is a better approach I think.

Additionally, many bearings are made to standard size, and if so you may be able to take advantage of stock over the counter bronze bushings in either sintered or solid form.

A spindle bearing with a lot of shake is one thing, but a leadscrew hanger bracket may well be just fine with .005" clearance..or more....it depends on function.

Here's a page from Perrigo on wick oilers and their function.




The tube is required for proper function.
Adding more strands of wick will increase the oil flow, less for less

Warm Regards,

Dave

So Dave, what you are saying is that the fact the oil was used up very quickly (I was turning the spindle by hand) isnt necessarily a reaon for replacement... although in most cases the oil ended up running out of the bearing down the front and/or rear face of the headstock. Is this a case of too much oil - something a wick would have prevented?

So how would you recommend I verify the bearings? I was baseing my thinking to some extent on Emma's comment "my bearings hold oil now". On all 3 lathes there is little perceptible end-float or radial movement on the spindles. Looking down the oil-holes with a torch suggests some level of scoring on the spindle surface but I can't tell without dismantling what level of wear there is or what type of bearing it is either, although I think both the Gamages and the Relmac have split bronze bearings with single sided pinch-bolts. Not sure about the Lorch, but I suspect its similar to Emma's.

Some suggestions as to the best way to tackle this appreciated...

Hi,

If the lathes are 50 years+ old there will be wear, but you don't necessarily need to do something about it. Have you measured the shake in the spindle? Is it more than .001"? If it isn't, I would start looking at the bed first, as you will probably find more wear there than in the spindle.

If all seems well, lubricate the spindle and turn a test piece, will it turn straight?, does it chatter? What kind of tolerances do you want to hold? Do you intend to make washers or watches?......Washers aren't so fussy.

Are they historically significant machines? Like Lord Kelvin used this lathe to make his famous muffler bearings or some such? I know of a Rivett 608 in a museum that is in original condition and will stay that way because it was Mr Land's ( of camera fame) personel lathe. If so you may not want to touch it at all!

"Advanced Machine Work" through Lindsey publications ( Try Camden books in London) has a great section on checking for errors on a lathe, and how to do it. It is impossible to diagnose how bad a lathe is worn with a few pictures and an email, and I would be doing a dis-service telling you otherwise.

As to lubrication

On the right hand page of the scan I posted is a good description of how a wick feed works and more importantly, why you need one. (Fig 80 and the associated paragraphs) Start at .." In many cases the spindle bearings are lubricated..."

Your oil is running out, most likely, because you have no wicks at all, not NECESSARILY because your bearings are all clapped out......you will note the caveat.

The wicks will prevent the oil from dumping, and maintain a steady flow. What you have done with the soda straws is not comparable to the wick feed situation, in fact it has more in common with dumping oil into a crankcase of a car.

As a matter of fact, a wick oiler will prevent the oil dumping out even if you overfill the cup, and provide a steady rate of flow to the bearing anyway.

The best designs are always the simple ones. Read up.... and good luck

Sincerely,

Dave

with the Lorch anyway, it could be just adjustment. my little ww lorch watchmakers lathe just has two brass plugs in the top, its worked fine for a long time now. I believe the all steel bearings in mine are supposed to run with a film of oil between the two parts, and the way I recieved it there was no hope of that. cone bearings will be a little different I think to the ones with caps on the top I think.

will be worth pulling it apart and cleaning it up anyway, I think, then checking it for accuracy, etc.

interesting thread, guys.
*EMM*

Hi,

If the lathes are 50 years+ old there will be wear, but you don't necessarily need to do something about it. Have you measured the shake in the spindle? Is it more than .001"? If it isn't, I would start looking at the bed first, as you will probably find more wear there than in the spindle.

If all seems well, lubricate the spindle and turn a test piece, will it turn straight?, does it chatter? What kind of tolerances do you want to hold? Do you intend to make washers or watches?......Washers aren't so fussy.

Are they historically significant machines? Like Lord Kelvin used this lathe to make his famous muffler bearings or some such? I know of a Rivett 608 in a museum that is in original condition and will stay that way because it was Mr Land's ( of camera fame) personel lathe. If so you may not want to touch it at all!

"Advanced Machine Work" through Lindsey publications ( Try Camden books in London) has a great section on checking for errors on a lathe, and how to do it. It is impossible to diagnose how bad a lathe is worn with a few pictures and an email, and I would be doing a dis-service telling you otherwise.

As to lubrication

On the right hand page of the scan I posted is a good description of how a wick feed works and more importantly, why you need one. (Fig 80 and the associated paragraphs) Start at .." In many cases the spindle bearings are lubricated..."

Your oil is running out, most likely, because you have no wicks at all, not NECESSARILY because your bearings are all clapped out......you will note the caveat.

The wicks will prevent the oil from dumping, and maintain a steady flow. What you have done with the soda straws is not comparable to the wick feed situation, in fact it has more in common with dumping oil into a crankcase of a car.

As a matter of fact, a wick oiler will prevent the oil dumping out even if you overfill the cup, and provide a steady rate of flow to the bearing anyway.

The best designs are always the simple ones. Read up.... and good luck

Sincerely,

Dave

jim rozen said:

The zerk grease fitting on the lathe in the photo is probably a former user-induced
error. Often zerk fittings are installed when bearings have deteriorated, or
when the original oil cups get their feed passages clogged.

Jim

Click to expand...

And, if you DO find a zerk or similar grease fitting, it may indicate a need to open the bearings and clean hardened grease out of the oil distributor grooves..... Seen it.......
.
.
.
Just because the oil runs out is definitely not cause to worry..... All of these systems are "total loss" systems, the oil goes through, and is not collected anywhere, so it exits the bearing.

There MUST be at least a small clearance to allow oil in to begin with. This is probably never much smaller than about 5 tenths, more on larger bearings. A lot of thinnish oil can go through such a space, especially if the shaft/spindle is being turned slowly.

Of course, there MAY be way too much bearing slop, but the oil flow isn't proof.

The wick or drop feed both slow the flow.

Not all machines have oil cups..... My little Boley WW lathe has no external cups at all, it just has two bronze rings that cover small oil passages. When starting up, I drop a little oil in each, cover them, and go. After a time, I may drop in a bit more. There seems to always be oil in there, capillary action must hold it in.

Hi,

As JST and Jim state....the lathe needs to be clean and free of all crud prior to making determinations. I agree. and I should have pointed that out as well.

Pay attention to what fittings are in place on the lathe. The ones shown in the photo look like zerks , and I think we agree that the lathes in question never came with zerks. I think Jim's suspicion that it's probably clogged with congealed grease are well founded.

Good luck

Dave

Many thanks all...

I have managed to get a contemporary line drawing of the Relmac which shows very small oilcups, a section of which is shown below.



The accompanying article talks about plain white metal bearings.

On the Lorch there is old grease in there so I think that will benefit from stripping down and cleaning out for a start.

What is the best way to measure the shake in the spindle - I have a dial test indicator and magnetic base.

I wasn't planning to make watches - more like suspension parts and small engine parts so great accuracy isnt required, but nevertheless I'd like to think I could aspire to accuracy later

Thanks for putting up with my questions... if you don't ask, you'll never learn and this is all newish to me (I can rebuild car engines no problems tho )

Hi,

the DTI and a piece of wood dowel to "lean on" should work fine.

and your most welcome....ask away...no one is born knowing this stuff, and there are many on this site that have forgotten more than I know

Dave

Some examples of oil delivery devices:

The two on the ends are drip feeds with glass reservoirs. The on on the
right can be shut off with the toggle, adjusted with the knurled ring. The
one on the left is lunkenheimer, with a single adjustable needle valve.

The one in the upper center is what you would find on a southbend
lathe 10L, a simple cup that allows you to set the level in the bearing
depending on how full it is.

The other two are wick feed types, the large one is basically the
one that would be on a bridgeport M head, and the smaller one was
removed from a lever type collet closer.



The wick feed ones have a standpipe up inside, with a pipecleaner wick that
drops down into the standpipe. The wick sets the flow rate and those wicks
can be purchased to flow different amounts. They obviously can't be shut
off. The innards:



This next is a home-made wick feed type, basically just turned from hex
brass bar stock:



It has a cover that lifts straight up, with a spring to hold it down. There's
a vertical brass standpipe with a black pipe cleaner that goes into the oil
pool, and then enters a hole in the side of the standpipe and drops down to
the bearing. The standpipe doubles as the support for the cover:



Overall pretty easy to make once you see one up close.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for that, seems simple enough once I have the facilities... might have to buy the initial pair and make the rest (I'm a great believer in DIY where possible).

Dave,

I put the DTI on the spindle and measured the following:
- on the Relmac the movement horizontally is .03-.04mm and 0.02 - 0.03mm vertically (1.25" spindle)
- on the Gamages the respective figures are .02 - .03mm in both directions (1" spindle)

so on both its around 1 - 1.5thou, so based on that I think I'll leave the bearings alone and sort out some wicking oil feeds.

I am having no luck finding wicking oil cups that would fit though. The oil holes on the Gamages lathe are, as near as I can measure, 215 " dia and have no threads in them, which would suggest push-fit cups, while the ones on the Relmac are threaded approx 0.275" dia internal and prob 18 - 20tpi, although this is by eye as I can't get a thread gauge down there - the hole is .32" dia for about 3/8" then is threaded (or what's left of a thread) for a further 3/8" approx down to the bearing surface. As far as I can work out this does not correspond to the minor diameter of any thread I can find reference to. Neither of these relate size-wise to any wicking oil cup I can find on the web Am I missing something here, or could these both have been specials?

Edit: the Relmac could be threaded 5/16 British Standard Cycle (BSC) ... but why??? nothing made in those sizes

...so on both its around 1 - 1.5thou, so based on that I think I'll leave the bearings alone and sort out some wicking oil feeds.


YES. I would do that for now, mind the crud in the bearings!...you will need to clean that out. With everything else cleaned and adjusted, you can try the lathe out and see how the bearings are doing. That much clearance I would think you could take up if the journal is OK....but i am not seeing any take up shims on these lathes, so that may be a problem later.....hard to tell from this side of the pond. If there are shims under the caps, Keep them strung on a wire and put them back exactly where you found them....IT MATTERS!

If the bearings have caps, like the Relmag, when you take them off to clean up, run a tap in for a standard wick cup, or if they are too big already, the next size up thread and a brass adapter with the large thread on the OD and the wick cup thread on the ID. You can make these easily with another lathe or even a drill press if pressed.

You can do this also on the other two, but with GREAT caution so as not to bugger up the bearing.......The best advise here is " go slow and think about what your doing"....I put it in quotes because it isn't my line 8-)


Dave

I have a 14" x 72" Rockford lathe of late 1800, early 1900 vintage that was rebuilt by my father-in-law. He put new brass bearings in the headstoc, scraped them in and then shimmed them with paper to get an exact clearance.

It is a great lathe with a 2-speed back gear and a conversion from flat-belt to overhead motor which includes a 4-speed gearbox. I think it has every accessory that one can think of. I put a 6-jaw chuck on it to accurately cut and thread thin tubing and it is amazingly accurate.

The inside of the spindle has about 0.0002" runout. But, because the bearings might be a bit tight, I found they heated up to Quite Warm during extended operation.

Switching to Mobil 1 synthetic immediately solved the heating problem as it did in my Bridgeport spindle bearings. Since these are total loss systems, the detergent additives just flush more junk out of the bearings and don't cause a problem.

I use a drip oiler for the front spindle bearing on the lathe and a wick-type for the rear bearing. I allow about 1 oz. of oil to drip through the front bearing every 8 hours.

New oil cups and drip oilers are readily available in the U.S. They are just expensive.

BTW, a worn bed on a lathe doesn't contribute much to inacuracy as the vertical motion of the carriage has very little effect on the diameter of the turned work (do the math). The Rockford looks like it is a hundred years old. But the carriage is not touching the flat portion of the ways, it still rides on the inverted V portion. So all is well if somewhat ugly.

"Mobil one syntetic..."





Jim