Old Brown and Sharp #12 (?) Horizontal Mill

This is a Brown and Sharp Horizontal mill we have at our place. I think this machine's been in service it's whole life. It's seen a few upgrades but I'm thinking about overhauling it someday. I'm wondering if anyone has info on it:
1. In a modern shop, what jobs can this machine do? The machine has No Y movement other than how you space out the cutter. The only jobs I can see this puppy doin is plaining metal with a 6" long or so cutter or doing jobs with a special jig that'll hold your part exactly where it needs to be. The most recent job we've used this machine for was cutting slots with the cutter shimmed to the right space.
2. The Z movement assembly has been replaced. Does anyone have a picture of how this systum originaly functioned? My guess is that it mounted to the spot where we have the feed moter mounted now.


Overall view.

Information

I'm going to redo the motor mount configuration with the motor bolted to the back of the base with the shaft pointing towards the machine.

Back view. Obviously the feed motor is aftermarket. There's a pully on the flywheel shaft where I think the Feed motion was originaly taken from. The new system's nice though and will stay (though it might get moved to a more secure location. The control box will be routed to the front of the machine). We also plan to put a good enclosure around the flywheels and belts. Osha will be so pleased.

The Z movement I was talking about. The hub that the aluminum block wraps around has incremental lines on it but they're covered up. If I have to fabricate my own systum I'd like to route the handwheel underneith the bed towards the front.

View of the work area. Only a single slot! Lots of machinests didn't like this and put all kinds of threaded holes in the bed. These'll get filled eventually.

Production mill - set it up and run a thousand pieces on a single operation. It is old - listed in 1917 catalog.

J.O.

johnoder said:

Production mill - set it up and run a thousand pieces on a single operation. It is old - listed in 1917 catalog.

J.O.

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I can't prove it but I wouldn't be supprised if this machine's been with our company since it was new. Our company's gone through so much downsizing and factory changes over the last 50 years that It's remarkable they kept this unit if this is the case.

The "up and down" in your photos appears original except for the block at the top that used to be cast iron.

My take on the system is you adjust it up or down to where you want it with the lower hex nut, then lock the trunnion caps in that position. But then I could sure be wrong.

Originally there was a front support to ALSO fit on the over arm, it had slotted side verticals and tied the over arm to the base by clamping down bolts screwed in the front of base that passed through the slotted verticals. Then you could really have a rigid little set up for horizontal milling. The two extended bosses on front on either side of the big hand wheel is where the support got clamped.

J.O.

You've got Y and Z confused. Z is always the spindle axis of rotation. The "up and down" ( for lack of a more descriptive term) motion of the table is Y. It has no Z movement. It is intended for hard , brutal, heavy, repetitive work. It is probably as tough as any machine that size ever built. Not much of a tool room or hobby machine but a workhorse if you know how to use it.

Catalog says spindle has 5/8" of adjustment, so I guess it has a smidgen of "Z" movement.


It probably moves at least this much when you are trying to get the arbor unstuck from its #10 B&S taper.

J.O.

Here are a couple of illustrations showing two types of overarm support.
The #12 I have is the third illustration with the table type base.







The machine I have is original and unaltered. It is detailed in a 1904 Brown and Sharpe catalog.
I will get a photo later detailing the spindle height adjustment parts.
My mill is missing a couple of parts that I need to make. At some time would you be able to help me out with some photos, sketches and dimensions?

Regards,
John

And here are some pages from an 1894 Brown and Sharpe catalog.







Regards,
John

From the 1898 catalog:







Regards,
John

jhruska said:

Here are a couple of illustrations showing two types of overarm support.
The #12 I have is the third illustration with the table type base.

The machine I have is original and unaltered. It is detailed in a 1904 Brown and Sharpe catalog.
I will get a photo later detailing the spindle height adjustment parts.
My mill is missing a couple of parts that I need to make. At some time would you be able to help me out with some photos, sketches and dimensions?

Regards,
John

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I'd be glad to help! If you can see the parts you need in the picture, I'll do my best to get you the specs on them. Just message me whenever you need em.

Thanks everyone! These pictures are great! This machine isn't as oddball as I thought (a very good thing).

The info on sproket cutting is very interesting. If we can set this thing up to cut gears, it alone would merit keeping this unit part of the shop.

Also, if anyone ever runs across the support arms for this machine (or any other tooling for it) I'd be interested.

M.B.

Do you work for one of the leather plants there in Yoakum?

Curiosity fixin to "kill a cat"

Ken

4GSR said:

M.B.

Do you work for one of the leather plants there in Yoakum?

Curiosity fixin to "kill a cat"

Ken

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Nope, Campbell Randell machinery. We do some business with them though.

Another question:
In the picture of the back of our machine, there's a threaded stud below the flywheels. There's also a hole with a cast flange around it on the back of the base. Does anyone know what these points were originaly for? I was thinking about making use of them when I make the new motor mount but I wanted to make sure before I cut myself off. From the pictures posted I've learned that were we have our feed motor mounted is where a oil pump should be.

I guess I might ask as well, any recomendations on how to mount the main motor? I've seen some nice aftermarket mounts on similar machines which have a gearbox and everything clamped onto the over-arm. Would this be the best route?

tdmidget said:

You've got Y and Z confused. Z is always the spindle axis of rotation. The "up and down" ( for lack of a more descriptive term) motion of the table is Y. It has no Z movement. It is intended for hard , brutal, heavy, repetitive work. It is probably as tough as any machine that size ever built. Not much of a tool room or hobby machine but a workhorse if you know how to use it.

Click to expand...

TD,
Last thing I want is to pick a fight but I have some concerns over this Y & Z stuff. If you are talking about a Huron mill or a Schaublin Type 53 which are equally horizontal or vertical machines how do you chose which to nominate for Z or Y? Do you change the machine description every time you move the head from the one plane to the other? Not trying to be pedantic either, just want to know if there is a definitive answer.

Ray

I had one of those. I sold it about 6 months ago for about $200.

It is good for making long odd shaped parts. It was used to mill an oval shaped shaft that was about 10" long. How else would you do something like that? I suppose if you had a Y axis lathe and live tooling, you could do it, but no where as fast as with this puppy. Just need to make or find the right cutter.

Update with a question:

Did some work on this machine to get it ready for a job. Mainly polished and lubed it. The cutter shaft needed some lathe work (had to do some serious yankin to get it out of the machine) and we replaced the spindle center and it's in route to be heat-treated. Found a nice long and narrow vise (good for the tables dimensions). Found out the aftermarket feed motor was dead (still need to tear into it and do a better damage acessment) so at the moment the feed's running off of the main flywheel (original operation) However I found a couple dandy motors in our inventory that I was thinking would make a nice addition. Both are matching variable speed belt drives. There's a 1/2 horse I hope to use for the feed and a 2 horse for the main drive. I'm wondering if the nature of a belt drive variable speed motor will lead to any issues with a horizontal mill? Also would 2 HP be to much for the spindle as it currently has a 1 HP motor? I'm hoping to promote this machine as a hearty metal-mover (we're going to flame-cut and machine a replacement brace for the support arm).

With my previous motor mount question, I'm thinking the feed motor will be mounted on the right side of the machine beineth the tool tray and the spindle motor will go on a freestanding cast-iron stand behind the machine (chest high) with removable braces to fix it to the machine. It's kinda more hodge-podge then I'd like but I'm afraid the machine might flip over backwards if I mount it directly to the frame. I'm contemplating mounting the motor above the machine but I'm afraid the supports would interfear with the machines operation.

Update!

Well the variable speed belt drive motor idea flopped due to inability to pleasantly mount them to the machine. Instead I was able to get the Dayton Servo motor for the feed in the pictures fixed (1/4 hp) and I found a matching servo set for the spindle (1 1/2 hp). These'll be alot easier to mount (standard motor mounting plate) since they're more compact and I don't have to stratigicly position them so as to be able to access the speed controls. The control boxes and the coolant pump switch will be mounted in a cluster accesible to the operator but out of the way. The machine has coolant now! I found that with a standard mini-sub-pump in the machines basin with the basin filled to the max, there was ample coolnat (I was afraid the basin was too small and would run out of coolant before it flowed back in). I've also got the machine off of the skid and on the floor in a spot that will hopefully be permanent. Getting it leveled and wired up right now. I'll get fresh pics up when I make a little more progress. I'm close to being able to take a cut with it! Just need to make some repairs to the vise, and weld and recut the tang on the arbor. It was twisted and gnarled pretty good but is otherwise stable, It just needs better shape to fit the spindle.

Fixing the arbor's tang just became a low priority. I was digging around in the obsolete fixturing shelves and found two rusty yet damage free arbors for the ol' #12! I also found some other big taper tool holders but they don't have tangs and I'm not sure the taper's the same #10. Most of the stuff we have in those shelves are indeed tools for production type mills and lathes but it's all cast iron jigs and special shaped cutters so I'm excited for the find.

I think I also figured out 'Y' movement with these new arbors. The first arbor has a standard design with a shoulder on the back and a nut on the front (hard to work with) but the two new ones have a nut at both ends alowing you to shift the stack back and forth.... I never would have thought of that. Pics soon! I promise!