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Old Machinery...What's The Point??

etard

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Location
redlands, CA
I, like the rest of you, love the old machines. I can stare and fiddle with old lathes all day and not get bored. Thank goodness I have a very understanding wife who prefers that I spend my free time in the shop rather than out getting into trouble. My friends and family kinda get the whole restore and bring machines back to life thing, but none have shown more than a passing interest. And my dog...well, she just wishes I would throw the dang ball already :drool5:!

Anyway, I am taking machining classes at the local Community College and was hoping that a few of the guys in my class would be on the same page and we could swap stories and visit each others' shops. It seems not a single student owns any antique machinery (besides the occasional micrometer). I get it, school is there to fill jobs, not garages, but you would think that at least one retiree would be there filling his free time with blue chips! I would go one step further and say that most students and faculty laugh at the archaic design of old machines, and the use and restoration of said scrap iron is preposterous.

So what's the point? I'm probably on the (how to put this...) "greener" shade of grey at 36 years, and if there is going to be some sort of torch passing in the future, who will be there to carry the flame? Why does every lathe or mill need saving? What or who are we saving it for? Will it even matter in 20 years? I watch and love antiques roadshow, and I am still waiting to see an antique cast iron machine show up on there, but my guess is I could be waiting a long time to see this come to pass. Why? Because where would you display an old lathe? Certainly not in the house!

As an activity that gives us pride and enjoyment, it is obvious the value in the restoration of old machines. However, as a mission to save every last piece of american iron before it is shipped and melted overseas, this seems an exercise in futility, or as some would call it "polishing brass on the Titanic".

So what is the point? Other than saving a few prime examples for display, why should that 1901 Seneca Falls lathe not go to the scrapper?

:popcorn:
 
I get where you are coming from, it is the same in the UK ,I often here people refer to (manual) machines 30 odd years old as old rubbish that should have been scrapped years ago ,when I would consider them to be near enough a new machine.

People are used to throwing puters and phones out in months rather than years so a machine 10 years old is ancient and an antique machine is just off the radar.

In answer to your question why bother ,I guess if we pass the history on, noone in the future can blame us for losing it.Its up to them.
 
If you are strictly talking antique machines I don't see the point besides sentimental reasons but machines that are just "old" still fill a niche for allot of folks. It's hard to find a brand new, quality made manual machine that is relatively cheap and those older machines fill that niche very well. The price to manufacture new, modern machine tools is only going to get more costly and may become out of reach for some in the future. I think we need to keep these older machines going as long as they're useful to people.
 
I have passing appreciation for almost anything "iron", but I must admit that "old machinery" just because it's old, is starting to look a lot like scrap metal to my eyes. (Certain ornate castings in exception).
Any manual machine, to be interesting, needs to have "all" the basic features or provision for same, and also be done well. The "commodity" machine tools of 70 years ago, that were built to a price and a demand are the last thing I am willing to drag home. While the "nicer stuff" of the same type still offers satisfaction. (Any machine without tooling is only a money pit!)

In the same way, I look at 30 year old NC tools as near worthless, and of even less interest and more of a money pit than an un-tooled manual. It is very hard to justify a retrofit unless just for the satisfaction, and the "doing".

Special purpose machines are different, with value and interest based on application and need.

With that, my needs are entirely met with "old manuals", but I'm not looking to add more (shopping, but not buying is OK ;-)

IF a good contract came my way, I would not hesitate to purchase the correct tool off the showroom floor.
 
There is just enough of this old crap to make it worthless. I think we would lose a important range of skills with a wholesale switch to computers. These machines are a very important piece of history, they made this county what it was. They say we won WWII because we had more turret lathes than the axis.
I have to run contrary to your assumption that no student owns any antique machinery, I'm 16 and my Sheldon lathe is from '43 and I'm bringing home a 34X168 L&S from 1904 in the next few weeks. And all my tools are 2nd or 3rd hand.
I like old iron for more than nostalgia. For one reason its cheap, my big L&S is going to cost me $500 and a $400 rigging charge to get it, show me a CNC that I can have for the same price? I also like that fact that it forces me to be a good machinist, I've got worn bed ways, lead screws, backlash everywhere and if I want to get a good part out of this POS then I have to know what I'm doing.
That senca falls lathe should not be scraped, because someone has a use for it and can put it to work.
If you need to be reinspired of the value of old iron, read "The Grey Seas Under" by Farley Mowat.
These videos are kinda similar to this topic
Central Texas Tools (Texas Country Reporter) - YouTube
"Linotype: The Film" Official Trailer - YouTube
 
... Because where would you display an old lathe? Certainly not in the house!...

I know at least two guys who display (not use) old lathes in their house. One has a very old and rather small lathe in a standard size house. He is known here and has posted pictures of the lathe.

The other is a very wealthy guy with a huge house and outbuildings to display his many interests, which do include several lathes. Pictures below. Jasper's home is open to the public for several charity events each year. It is unforgettable. I have been there a number of times and look forward to another visit. Each time, he has added more stuff and the space to display it. The Sanfilippo Foundation - Place de la Musique

Larry

DSC00433.jpgDSC00439.jpgDSC00431.jpgDSC00452.jpgDSC00459.jpg
 
Some old "30 to 60 yrs." machines are just so well designed that they are attractive. Jigmill, Moore jig-borer, Sip, Gisholt , Warner & Swasey turret lathes, and many more.
 
You say old and I think ANTIQUE. I use OLD machinery because it is cost effective. I collect ANTIQUE machinery because I love the mechanics and history behind it. And, I dont think every single OLD machine needs to be saved. It is a shame when really early piece is lost. Its a shame to loose a B52 in a crash. We dont NEED all those B52s, but I think its nice to try and keep all the survivors and keep them flying. I dont know. I suppose, a 1901 Senaca falls more or less, not end of the world to me. I do think the world would be a little smaller place if no Seneca falls lathes survived. But there are a lot of them around. A granite bed, chain drive lathe, yes I would cry alligator tears to hear one of those got scrapped. How many 1972 VW bugs do we need? Nice to always have a few around, dont need to save every one of those either, IMHO.

The same reason we save a 1912 automobile? maybe? On the road any 1912 vehicle its probably a death trap for all by local Sunday outing. But what a history. And any vehicle from that era seems worth saving. Or same reason we save Renaissance artists paintings. Cannot do much with a Mona Lisa but stare at it. Not very practical to setup a climate control room in your house. Probably more work to adequately store great art than building a garage to house old car, motorcycles, steam engines, gas engine or really old antique good-for-nothing-practical machine tools. I cannot afford great art and just as well, since I dont know a Da Vinci from a Luigi. I cannot afford any B52's either.

If it does not feel right, dont do it. Its not a charity, its a passion. Like other things it may wax and wane. Using the early ANTIQUE machinery is a challenge, just as driving and maintaining a 1912 vehicle. But, if not for cheap OLD machinery, I would have no shop at all.
 
Appreciation is born of empathy, empathy is born of knowledge.
Why do we bother to understand these artifacts from another time?
I suppose for me they represent humanity and accomplishment.

There is something almost sacred about those things which remain from our past.
"Do no harm"
Time is handy enough at destroying our history- don't help it.
If you have the energy- help to preserve some evidence of our forebears.
 
We learn by steps, beginning with basics. Love, noises, speech, letters, writing, literature, philosophy.

Math from sizes through numbers through add-and-subtract..........

Tools from our own bodies, weights, balance, to hammers, knives, saws,pliers,vises, breast=drill, bench drill,mill.......

Many would say that much is lost in understanding and skill to make proper application, if writing is taught on the computer before one learns to shape letters with pencil, or math on the calculator before numbering the fingers.

Plenty of stories here and elsewhere of spaceships that crashed or similar accidents contributed to by blind faith in displayed digits.


Beyond the pedagogic value of old tools, and beyond the spiritual value of honoring the will and skill embodied in them, there is the practical.

First and easiest is the low price, allowing entry to a world of capabilities to 'most anyone. As supply dwindles, price will rise.

The last I will cite is robustness, and I do not merely mean hard-to-break it-with -hammer. I mean robstness, recoverability, maintainability of the whole system of making things with old tools, versus new ones that need batteries, or mains power, or silicon chips or software updates..... MANY here love the old tools because we can fix 'em, essentially forever, come high water or EMP or geopolitial instablity. A shop that can replicate itself at the circa 1900 level is attainable for many individuals and more small communities, and 1900 technology enables perhaps 80% of the personal comfort and abundance and public health we value in the modern world..

Member Joe Michaels has contributed much to this debate in his posts.
 
I kinda feel like Guy Montag. Holding onto something until there is a time when people... hopefully my children... will appreciate them.
i guess collecting is a personal thing with hopes that they will stay another generation from the scrapper. But even if the kids dont get it, i like that old iron... alot and i'm gonna keep on getting that old iron 'cause i'm a thirty nine year old ironaholic.
think i need a bigger shaper... wonder if i can fit a smallish planer in the gar... err shop... /wonders away muttering
 
I work with the crew doing the restoration of the machine tools at Tuckahoe (Tuckahoe Steam & Gas Association - Home). At our annual show many of the visitors say that they are glad that some one is restoring, and showing the old belt driven tools. Just because most people think that these tools should be melted down and recycled does not mean they are right. In fact, I believe that they are wrong, IMHO ;-). It's important to learn about history, and the best way to do that is to experience it. And to experience it, it really helps to have the hardware. I disagree with an earlier statement about some items are worth saving because they were "common". You don't understand what special is until you know what common was.

You see on TV guys with millions and millions worth of cars in a million dollar plus garage. It would take only one or two of those guys (& there money) to save all of the machines that need saving. It is a shame that we put a high value on the old cars, but not even a passing interest on the machines that built them. My hope is that someone with money will start collecting and displaying these old tools one day, and my collection can be add to theirs when I pass on.

Though I may have started working with Tuckahoe with on eye on having access to a planer (that would never fit in my basement :-)), the real reward to me is being able to save the old tools for future generations and educating people along the way.

Vince




P.S. Some one had a link to a lineotype machine (I have not followed the link yet). I saw a line-o-type machine in operation at the Baltimore Museum of Industry once, and you really can not appreciate how complicated the machine is until you see it in operation. No book or picture of it can amaze you as much as watching it work.
 
You either get it or you don't.If you can't see the men in the machine then you don't see the machine.An antique whatever is far more than what it appears.The history of men who dreamed of something better is molded into those castings and skills beyond comprehension displayed in terms of how these skills were applied with the technology of their day.
Truly old machines which have managed to survive are rare.Rarity doesn't translate always into monetary value.I think when old machines are looked at in a monetary sense their true value is masked by ignorance.To truly appreciate their value we look beyond the obvious and seek to understand how and why it came into existence.Here we find back breaking labor and poverty and men who died early.Coal and steam and sweat shops.
We also find men of great character and skill who strove to give their children a better standard of living and left the world a better place because they found pilgrimage here...a pilgrimage written in hand made tools and machines precision carved with chisels and perfected with file. Antique machinery is the legacy of men who changed our world and replaced the burdensome yoke with an easier way of life.We owe these men a great deal and remember them through the machines which survive.
This awareness is a gift and those of us who have it can't define it or put it into the words because mere words aren't enough.It goes far beyond words because it's the story of man in modern times.Like I said..you either get it or you don't.
 
Lester, that very eloquently put, if you have to have it explained you won't understand. Unfortunately we can't save it all, but we have to try to save our little piece of it before its gone.
My Father understands my thinking when it comes to machine tools, because he has the same affliction when it comes to old farm equipment. The thing that different about him is that he's actually going to farm with old junk. If you want to see real heart breakers look in the Midwest where they are scraping running combines from the 60s.
We bought a Case 700 combine (a rice special too) from an old woman in Flatonia. All we did to start this machine was turn the key (this is like finding a cone head with virgin bed ways) my dad asked casually if the lady had the manual. Without a word she turned and we back inside the house and brought the manual out 2 min later. When she came back she was crying, she said "You don't know what this machine means, it was everything we had, we bet everything on this" that machine was in such good shape that we drove it home. People don't understand today that its not the machine were saving, but the memory of the people connected to it.
 
Amplifying on Lester's post, these machines at one time were capable of making some pretty incredible things. When brought back to some form of functionality, even if they can't match their original accuracy, under skilled operator hands these machines can still be coaxed to produce useful things.

Joe
 
This forum was a dangerous place to ask 'why' :)

For me, the answer has been made apparent above. These machines have 50, 75, 100, or MORE years of hands on them. Hands of skilled laborers, craftsmen, ARTISTS of the highest caliber. Men (and women!) who expressed their skill and creativity through the use of these tools. People who are few and far between today. At age 27, I realise that I'm a member of a rare breed, being a fulltime metalworker. Earning the respect of my elder peers in everything from production to toolmaking has been my greatest accomplishment. Caretaking my old machinery is my way of paying respect to those who paved the way for me.

On the other side of my response is the practical aspect. I know that I can't work for someone else forever. I am building up a small job shop of my own to cater to the local hot rodders, mechanics, and heavy equipment repair guys. I have done work in the pages of The Rodders Journal, in the local hot rods, and on the equipment keeping the local DPW's humming, all on my sub-1000 dollar oldies. The smaller stuff (my Burke #4, and my hopefully soon-to-sell C.A. Mann 11x24) is giving way to bigger stuff. I now have a ca. 1950s Rambaudi toolroom mill and a big old gap bed Seneca Falls to improve output time and job quality. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to afford 'late model' stuff. I'm not sure I'd want it anyway. There's something to be said for equipment that's run for 50+ years, and won't stop ticking. The 20 year old Taiwan crap at work has been used lightly, and is all worn out. The US made HAAS lathe is 10 years old, and ready for the scrap heap. I'll pass, thanks. My shops overhead is low, and my quality standards are high. I'll keep the old stuff humming.
 
What a good thread. There's not much I can add following Lester and others' posts, but one additional point comes to mind:

These machines represent the intermediate step between basic hand tools and modern machines. Without preserving some examples of them it will be much harder for future generations to comprehend how they got from A to B.

As a boy I toured a wonderful automotive museum in San Diego that had an International Harvester highwheeler. I could get right up close and examine it and even with a boy's eyes I understood how it worked. It was an amazing machine - not because of what it is, but because of how it linked together the past and the present in a way that anyone could grasp. I could see the resemblance to a horse-drawn wagon, but I could also see the mechanical details that any modern automobile still has. And with the layers of complexity removed, I could understand it.

That one surviving machine tied together a mostly gone and forgotten past with the present in a way that makes the picture complete. Without examples like this it is much harder to understand the advanced technologies that we are surrounded by.

That is why these old machines still have a point - even in their obsolescence, they still have value in educating the next generation of craftsmen.
 
You guys have said everything so well I don't know if I can add anything said any better. In addition to what so many others have said, I have to add that for me it is almost impossible to put into words. It is a connection to the past, and an appreciation for the craftsmanship that went into the making of the machine as well as an appreciation for what a true craftsman could do at the controls.

Machines were viewed differently in the past. I love old pictures where workers are posed with a machine. Be it a steam locomotive or a metal lathe. The machine is prominent in a lot of those pictures just like it is another guy. It was something to be proud of. Look at the pride in the older machines. Beautiful paint and polished surfaces, hand painted letters and even pinstripe on machine tools.

My dad got me interested in old machine when I was a kid. We used to go to antique farm equipment shows and old car museums. He was a machinist and got me interested in machine tools too. I will never forget, it was probably in the late 70's and we were talking about how the old machines had so much style. He said "The new lathes look like a stack of boxes". I thought that was funnier than hell. What was really funny was years later when I was bullshitting with my own son in the garage one evening and I was remarking about how my old LeBlond Regal from the WWII era had classy lines and I said "New lathes look like a stack of boxes" and he laughed. He is 26 now and has a good job and a family of his own. He told me the other night he wants to collect some machine tools for his shop. And so it continues. I hope he wants my machines when I am old enough to be done with them, just like I have some of my dads and grandpas stuff.

I agree that if someone has to have it explained to them they probably will not get it anyway.
 








 
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