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  1. #241
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    Other little Detroit powered tractors.

    John Deere 435 wheel and 440 ICD crawler have 2-53... built ~57 to ~61

    HD Allis's as mentioned before.

    There was a 1-71 built for a short time as a gen set.

    BE Dynahoe used 3-53

  2. #242
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    Although not a crawler, I think that the Australian, Chamberlain tractors used a 3 cylinder Detroit as a more powerful replacement for their own flat opposed 2 cylinder unit.

    Did John Deere take over Chamberlain?

  3. #243
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    Default Lamborghini's ingenius way to transport a crawler

    In the Same Deutz-Fahr museum at Treviglio

    There is a higher res copy of the picture here: Photo gallery


  4. #244
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    Alpacca Fortyfive

    QUOTE: Did John Deere take over Chamberlain?

    Yes. They traded as Chamberlain John Deere and continued making Chamberlain badged tractors for a while, but the Chambelain name eventually disappeared.

    The Chamberlain Super 90 was the model which had the 3-71 GM engine.

    In the photo taken about 1966, an Allis Chalmers HD7 crawler with 3-71 GM engine is giving assistance to the Meadows engined Chamberlain Countryman tractor out of the photo on the front of a double trailer unit in wet conditions. Load is about 14 tons of sugar cane. The trailer tires were retreaded ex DC3 aircraft.

    franco
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails light_assistance.jpg  

  5. #245
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    The going looks a little soft there!

    Black cotton soil?

  6. #246
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    Here's a little Ransomes' Tracked cultivator from 1941 renovated in 2007 and still in use at the Museum of power in Langford Essex UK

    Bill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tracked-cultivator-1.jpg   tracked-cultivator-2.jpg   tracked-cultivator-3.jpg  

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    The GM/Detroit 3-53s were very popular in railroad reefer cars. That's where my friend scavenged many of the parts to restore the welder.

  8. #248
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    Default Rubber Tracks - Part 1 - Adolphe Kégresse

    Adolphe Kégresse was born in France in 1879, and in 1905, after attending technical school in France, he went to Petrograd, Russia (now generally referred to as Saint Petersburg, and during the dark days of communism, as Leningrad), where he worked as a master mechanic in the shops of the Moscow to Saint Petersburg Railway. By 1907 he was working as an engineer in the Imperial Garage of Tsar Nicolas II at Tsarskoye Selo (literally "the Royal Village", a royal compound of palaces, guest houses, guard houses, barracks, stables, and one presumes a large garage), about 16 miles south of St. Petersburg. He was soon made the technical manager of the garage. In about 1910, he started to develop crawler type tracks to be fitted to automobiles, at the request of the Tsar, so that the Tsar could hunt in the snow. Kégresse developed experimental lightweight, flexible bands of various combinations of rubber, canvas, leather, wire rope and metal pieces and built track assemblies which he fitted to the Tsars Packards, Mercedes-Benzs, and the Tsars favourite, the French Delaunay-Belleville.



    In 1913, Kégresse applied for patents for this device, and variations on it, in several countries.



    You can see his original patent issued in Great Britain <by clicking here>. It is very similar to patents issued in the USA, and Switzerland.

    Kégresse continued to improve on his designs, and filed for other patents on details of his tracks. However, in October of 1917, things took a turn for the worse for Tsar Nicolas II, and in November, Kégresse fled to Finland with little more than the clothes on his back.

    By July of 1918, the Russian royal family had been executed by the Bolshevics, and Russia and the Soviet Union descended into tyranny, to be ruled by deviants and psychopaths, some of the most evil men the world has known, for the next 70 years. The people of the former Soviet Union have still not recovered from their corruption and depredations they inflicted upon them.

    Lenin, the first communist ruler of Russia, had one of the Rolls-Royce "Silver Ghosts" which had been confiscated from the royal family converted to a Kégresse half track by the Putilov Zavod workshop that had done work for Kégresse. The car still exists, and can be seen in the Gorki Leninskie Museum near Moscow, the estate where Lenin spent his final years.



    from <Gorki Leninskie Museum> web site.



    Russian engineers carried on developments based on the work of Kégresse, applying their research to armoured vehicles.

    Although one of the guiding principles of communism is that all men are equal, Lenin was apparently a little more equal than others (obligatory reference to George Orwell's Animal Farm). He had 9 Rolls-Royces in his stable.

    Robert Grauman

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    Default Rubber Tracks - Part 2 - Adolphe Kégresse and André Citroën

    By 1921, Adolphe Kégresse had made his way back to France. Before he left Russia, he had received a patent from Great Britain in 1917 for what was essentially the final design for his rubber track. Events delayed his application to other countries, and he received an identical US patent in 1924, having filed for it in 1921.

    Original document <Great Britain patent GB106353> of 1917.



    This illustrates the basic features of his rubber track - a wide rubber band with a flexible guide rib down the middle of the inside surface, and various tread designs on the outer face of the band.

    He interested André Citroën, the French automobile manufacturer, in his tracks. Citroën built some test units based on his Type "A" automobile, which were tested in the Paris area. The "A" model was discontinued in 1921, so perhaps "end of line" models were used for the trials.



    from Citroen A 8 CV Torpedo 1919- Wikipédia

    They were deemed a sucess, so Citroën started to build some based on his new B2 model automobile.



    from: Citroen B2 Torpedo 1921.jpg - Wikipédia

    To publicize his half-track, Citroën sponsored an expedition to cross the Sahara desert from southern Algeria to Timbuktu, a distance of some 2,000 miles. The expedition was led by Georges-Marie Haardt (Citroën's director general and a good friend of André Citroën), and was made by five Citroën half-tracks in December of 1922 and January of 1923. The journey was made in 20 days - a journey that normally took three months by camel. Each of the five half-tracks was fitted out differently for demonstration purposes. Prior to the expeditions departure, two auxilliary parties set out from Tuggurt, the sand locked terminus of the South Algerian Railway, and from Timbuktu and established supply caches 625 miles from each point. This left some 812 miles between the depots, which the half-tracks covered with ease. Military personel accompanied the expedition, as well as a camera man and a scientific observer. Five factory driver/mechanics were the backbone of the expedition. Two of the half-tracks were fitted with machine gun mounts, and the other three were fitted with search lights. Every night, they "circled the wagons" to guard against attacks by maurading Tuareg nomads. The expedition was highly publicized at the time, and the National Geographic Magazine published a story about it in May of 1924. Various armed forces started to buy the half-tracks.



    from: National Geographic May 1924.

    Sharp tongued critics of the time pointed out that camels were cheaper, and that an airplane could make the same trip in a few hours.

    In the meantime, Kégresse continued to improve his track design. <Great Britain patent GB168331> of 1921 shows his thinking at that time.



    Although the canted idler wheels looked like a good idea, I don't think they were much used.

    <Great Britain patent GB238227> of 1926 for a passenger vehicle is interesting.



    Following the success of the Sahara expedition, there was talk of building a string of luxury hotels along the route, with Citroën half-tracks ferrying wealthy tourists between the hotels. Fortunately for the potential investors, nothing came of the idea.

    Robert Grauman

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    "Following the success of the Sahara expedition, there was talk of building a string of luxury hotels along the route, with Citroën half-tracks ferrying wealthy tourists between the hotels. Fortunately for the potential investors, nothing came of the idea."

    But there's nothing stopping us now, is there? You find the Citroens, I'll work on the real estate.

  11. #251
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    From a cursory look, all of Adolphe Kégresse' essentials seem to have survived into this beast.

    It was on a dealer's stand at the Scottish National Ploughing Match, near Jedburgh a couple of weeks back.

    I got to take a spin in a rubber tracked Morooka tractor, while I was in the area. For some reason, I didn't photograph it.






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    Quote Originally Posted by northernsinger View Post
    "Following the success of the Sahara expedition, there was talk of building a string of luxury hotels along the route, with Citroën half-tracks ferrying wealthy tourists between the hotels. Fortunately for the potential investors, nothing came of the idea."

    But there's nothing stopping us now, is there? You find the Citroens, I'll work on the real estate.
    Northernsinger,

    Ummm...Ok. We'll need money. Do you have any wealthy investors in mind that we can fleece....errrr present with a new and unique opportunity to make a large return on their investment?

    Timeshare condos might work.

    Travel in the Sahara is not without its dangers.



    Robert Grauman

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    Default Caterpillar Challenger

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpacca Fortyfive View Post
    From a cursory look, all of Adolphe Kégresse' essentials seem to have survived into this beast..........

    Alpacca,

    I hope I can show that link as I proceed with my dissertation. If you have any further thoughts or observations on the matter, I should be most pleased to hear them.

    Robert Grauman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billtodd View Post
    Here's a little Ransomes' Tracked cultivator from 1941 renovated in 2007 and still in use at the Museum of power in Langford Essex UK

    Bill
    That reminded me of this loader I photographed in NY, I believe it was British




    Which reminded me of this Fowler



    Here's one of those Detroit powered ACs

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dscn2327-900.jpg   dscn2389-900.jpg   dscn2349-900.jpg  

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    Default Rubber Tracks - Part 3 - The "Black Cruise"

    One day, French President Gaston Doumergue mentioned to André Citroën and Georges-Marie Haardt that a regular rail link between the North African French colonies and Madagascar, a French territory isolated in the Indian Ocean, would be advantageous to France. André Citroën organized the "Black Cruise", to survey rail routes, and no doubt, to publicise his automobile company. After 10 months of preparation, 8 Citroën half-tracks left the southern terminus of the Algerian Railway on 28 of October 1924. It appears that the half-tracks were based on Model "B" Citroëns - the same as used on the trans-Sahara expedition previously discussed here. This time, each half-track towed a trailer. The expedition was again led by Georges-Marie Haardt, and each half-track carried three men. A motion picture producer and a camera operator, an artist, a medical doctor who also took care of taxidermy, scientists, nine factory driver/mechanics, and other staff (some military) were on the expedition.

    In June of 1926, an article written by Georges-Marie Haardt, the leader of the expedition, appeared in the National Geographic Magazine. This map shows the route:



    The article was 70 pages long, and as is typical of National Geographic articles, it is short on technical details. Some details of the journey are intriguing. On one leg of the journey through the Belgian Congo (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo), the Belgian authorities employed 40,000 natives to clear a trail and build bridges through 375 miles of jungle. The job was completed in less than a month.



    As the expedition progressed, groups of two half-tracks split off to survey different routes.

    Georges-Marie Haardt led a two vehicle group to Mozambique.



    A photograph of Georges-Marie Haardt's group crossing a river on three native pirogues with timbers thrown across them. Three men had to frantically bail during the crossing.

    Most of the expedition members and vehicles ended up in Cape Town, Union of South Africa, and were shipped back to France from that point. The expedition lasted nine months. The half-tracks must have performed well, since it appears that mechanical problems did not cause any significant delays.

    The expedition created a sensation in Europe, and the film made during the journey was widely shown.

    André Citroën was riding a wave of publicity, and from 1925 to 1934 his name appeared in lights on the Eiffel Tower in Paris.



    Robert Grauman

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    Excellent discussion there. Do you know anything about the transportation methods of the French 1931 Dakar-Djibouti expedition?

    And--slightly more related to the main discussion--I have some photographs of 1920's Cletracs around here somewhere. These were in the files of the S.L. Allen company, in Philadelphia, Pa, makers of Flexible Flyer sleds and Planet Jr farm equipment, and showed little Cletracs pulling Planet Jr stuff.

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    Default Dakar-Djibouti Expedition

    Quote Originally Posted by northernsinger View Post
    .......Do you know anything about the transportation methods of the French 1931 Dakar-Djibouti expedition?
    Northernsinger,

    I can find no references to this expedition in my (admittedly very limited) library, but I would guess that Citroën half-tracks were not used to any great extent on this expedition.

    Quote Originally Posted by northernsinger View Post
    And--slightly more related to the main discussion--I have some photographs of 1920's Cletracs around here somewhere. These were in the files of the S.L. Allen company, in Philadelphia, Pa, makers of Flexible Flyer sleds and Planet Jr farm equipment, and showed little Cletracs pulling Planet Jr stuff.
    I would be delighted to see your Cletrac photographs.

    Robert Grauman

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    Robert,

    Thanks for your excellent posts about Adolphe Kegresse and his ingenious tracks. The Delaunay-Belleville cars are of particular interest to me, so great to see the tracked version. A few more rambling comments of no great importance:

    Regarding the vehicles used on the ‘Black Cruise’, they were apparently also Type B2 Citroens as you surmise, according to Andre Citroen; The Man and the Motor Car by John Reynolds. The standard 10HP B2 car used a 1,452cc side valve engine with two main bearings, presumably a sound design to take on these adventures. They travelled at around 20 mph. I read that almost 90,000 B2 (including commercial variants) were produced from 1921-25.

    (BTW, anyone who looks for this book, get the revised edition, it was much enlarged. They waited until I had bought my copy before doing this of course!)

    I also read that the proposed luxurious Saharan tourist development was almost ready for its inaugural trip before it was cancelled at the last moment. For example the fleet of 70 vehicles was prepared; the tracked vehicles were based on 15hp Mors cars which were larger and more comfortable than the Citroens, thus suitable for their wealthy passengers. (The old-established company Mors became part of the Citroen Company after WW1. Andre Citroen was a consultant and manager to Mors from 1908 when they were in serious difficulties).

    Like many other car manufacturers, Andre Citroen visited Henry Ford, he fitted his tracks to a Ford for the occasion:



    It is interesting to read that Major-General Sir Ernest Swinton was a founding director of the British subsidiary, Citroen-Kegresse Ltd. Readers of tank history will know that Swinton was one of the key men behind the development of the Tank during WW1. He had many connections in Government and was able to ensure permission was granted for the Citroen-Kegresse expeditions to cross British territory in Africa.

    The Citroen-Kegresse created interest with the British Army, but they preferred a local-built product, so Crossley Motors secured the British Kegresse licence in 1925.
    Crossley offered the Kegresse tracks on all their commercial vehicles, both military and civilian. The civilian versions were apparently popular with the landed gentry “a sort of early Range Rover” e.g. King George V used one for hunting in Scotland.

    The photo below is a War Department IGL2, a model developed specifically for the British Army in India:

    Last edited by Peter S; 11-08-2010 at 04:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    Robert,

    ............ A few more rambling comments of no great importance:......
    Peter,

    Your comments are highly valued, and I appreciate them very much. I am pleased to have someone to keep me honest.

    I welcome any and all observations.

    Robert Grauman

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    Default Rubber Tracks - Part 4 - The "Yellow Cruise" (La Croisičre Jaune)

    It would appear that the Citroën half-tracks were demonstrating some problems with the band tracks. They would last only about 3500 miles, and with the increased horsepower of the newer engines, the drive wheels would sometimes slip on the bands. Adolphe Kégresse <patented a new design> in 1931.



    The drive wheel was sprocket-like and meshed with lugs (item 4) on the track band. The lugs on the track band and the guide ridge were all replaceable, and there were also replaceable metal plates and rubber lugs bolted on the outside of the track band. The track assemblies were a little wider as well. This was the track assembly used on the new model P17 Kégresse Citroën half-track.

    The P17 was based on the new Citroën C6 automobile which had been introduced in 1928 at the Paris Salon (Motor Show).



    The C6 had a six cylinder engine of 72mm (2.83") bore X 100mm (3.94") stroke, giving a total capacity of 2.44 liters (149 cubic inches) and was rated at 45 horsepower.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    From the time he returned from the "Black Cruise", Georges-Marie Haardt dreamt of opening up the "Silk Road" to motor traffic. The "Silk Road" was the legendary corridor through which commercial trade travelled between China, Persia, Arabia and Europe. The "Silk Road" had captivated Europeans since the 13th century, when Marco Polo of Venice in Italy wrote of his 15,000 mile, 24 year journey on the "Silk Road" with his father and uncle to the court of Kublai Khan, in what is present day Beijing, China. André Citroën was enthusiastic about the journey, and decided to finance the project. The National Geographic Magazine was a sponsor as well, on the condition, I suspect, that one of their writers accompany the Expedition. Given its sheer scale, the Expedition was to demand several years of preparation and reconnoitering.



    The Expedition was broken into three parts in the hopes of it having a better chance for success. The first group would depart eastbound from Beyrouth, Syria, (now Beirut, Lebanon) and travel through Syria, Persia (Iran), Afghanistan, and Kashmir. The second group would start westbound from Peiping (now Beijing) in China, and meet the first group somewhere in the Pamir Pass region. When they returned to Peiping, they would proceed south into French Indo-China (now Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia).

    The half-tracks were fitted out in a variety of ways. There were radio cars, mess cars, photogaphy cars, medical cars, and scout cars. Driver/mechanics, doctors, military men, photographers, artists, and scientists accompanied the Expedition. Each half-track towed a trailer, and three to five men rode in each vehicle. A large, freely turning, horizontal steel cylinder carried in front of the radiator enabled the cars to negotiate rough ground, ravines and steep banks. Removable metal seats, which could be periodically disinfected by fire, were placed forward on the outside of the body to accommodate native guides and helpers who were to be employed in the various countries traversed.

    The most formidable and time consuming natural obstacles to be crossed were thought to be streams which were too deep to be forded and too wide to be easily bridged. The cars were so constructed that their engines would function properly in water up to three feet, but many of the rivers they would have to cross would be much deeper. Each car, therefore, carried a large, watertight canvas bag which French military engineers designate as a "haber" bag. Small rubber bags would be placed within it, and when these were inflated the device would float a weight of 1,200 pounds. By fastening together seven of the improvised pontoons and placing a portable platform over them, a raft capable of supporting any one of the cars without its trailer could be constructed. To tow this raft, they brought a folding wooden boat with an outboard motor.

    Due to the eastbound group having to pass through some very rugged terrain, they used special half-tracks, which I believe were based on the smaller Citroën C4 automobile.



    These half-tracks were smaller and lighter than the P17's based on the C6, and the track assemblies may have been different from those used on the P17. It may be that these were not production vehicles, and were custom built for the Expedition. They had a four cylinder engine with 72mm (2.83") bore X 100mm (3.94") stroke. It displaced 1.63 liters (100 cubic inches) and was rated at 30 horsepower.

    However, due to the fact that the half-tracks would be required to operate to altitudes as high as 16,000 feet, superchargers were fitted to the engines. It would be the highest altitude that automobiles had operated to date. In addition, a second gearbox was fitted, and the maximum speed that could be attained was 12 miles per hour. The vehicle was rated to climb a 35 degree slope.

    Georges-Marie Haardt reported plans for the Expediton in the June 1931 issue of National Geographic Magazine.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    The eastbound Expedition departed from Beyrouth on 4 April 1931 with 7 (some reports say 6, but see the photograph below) half-tracks and 24 men. 3445 miles and 81 days later they arrived in Srinngar, the capital of Kashmir. It was pretty much straight driving. They made many stops to hob-nob with the local big wigs. They were accompanied by supply trucks all the way. Two big rivers and several smaller rivers were crossed, either on barge ferries, or by towing the vehicles across. As far as I can tell, they did not use the rubber bag floats they had brought from France on this leg of the journey.

    The National Geographic Magazine writer, Maynard Williams, reported on the journey in the October 1931 issue of National Geographic Magazine.



    "Through deep Syrian sand the heavy tractors prove their worth at the outset of the journey."

    Robert Grauman


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