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  1. #21
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    Joe M. That old Euc does indeed have air brakes ,treadle valve is right there between the weird throttle and clutch pedal. I was a HD truck partsman in the 60s-80s and sold parts for them beasts. I would suspect a 6-110 Detroit under the hood and the shift pattern looks to be for a 8000 series 5th over Spicer trans. However the trans maybe a Fuller as off the top of my head I don't remember what the shift pattern was on the 5 speed single countershaft boxes. I would say that truck is around 1950 a few years eithe way. 5th over boxes were used to give a bit faster return empty. On thinking further there is a good chance that is a Fuller trans with the second lever for the high/low 2 speed range box made on the rear,like a model 10F1220 .
    John

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  3. #22
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    Marshall:

    A story on a similar vein: I was on my first overseas job in Quito, Ecuador. The job was to field erect an opposed-piston Fairbanks diesel and generator and design the piping in a small paper mill. Another story not relevant to this thread.

    The other half of the job was to oversee startup and commissioning of an 8-268A Cleveland genset in a new plant which was to make toothpaste (and similar) tubes from scrap aluminum. A 268A Cleveland was built by GM in the old WInton plant in Cleveland, OH. It is a two stroke diesel with a Roots blower for scavenging, much like an overgrown Detroit diesel. 268 cubic inches per cylinder, but a straight 8 block.

    The 8-268A was to be prime power for the toothpaste tube plant. I spent most of my time on the job with the Fairbanks-Morse diesel. The tootpaste tube plant's genset was skid mounted. The 8-268A Cleveland had a 300 KW Columbia generator, designed to run at 1200 rpm. The genset had started out in life for the US Navy in WWII. It used 600 psig starting air, which was kind of a Navy standard. At some point, a civilian firm bought the genset as WWII surplus and added a radiator and electric-motor driven cooling fan. The genset then saw service in the oilpatch, out in the western USA. The genset found its way to the used generator dealers in PA, and was sold to the Ecuadorians, who were building the toothpaste tube factory. In fact, everything in the toothpaste tube factory was second hand. The engineers were Ecuadorians who'd worked in New Jersey for Continental Can, and had experience with impact extrusion to form tube type containers, and also with rolling and slitting lines. The machinery came out of old Continental Can plants. The toothpaste tube factory was built behind a factory making home refrigerators. The reefer factory stamped the plate-coils for the evaporator sections out of soft aluminum sheet. The toothpaste tube factory was to recycle this soft aluminum sheet scrap. They had gotten a small melting furnace, welded together some ingot molds, and were going to cast the scrap from the reefer factory into aluminum ingots. They would then roll the ingots into strip stock, then run it thru the impact extrusion line and thread rolling line. All they needed was power. They used a WWII US Army Signal Corps genset with a Willys gasoline engine to make construction and test power. I came on site to start up the Cleveland. I had never worked on a Cleveland, and all I had was a WWII US Navy Issue pocket manual.

    What I discovered was the toothpaste tube mill had installed a small gasoline driven compressor and receiver for starting air, and only had 200 psig air available. As I was to learn later, the US Dealer was able to start the Cleveland for a load test for the Ecuadorians on 120 psi shop air, since it was at sea level and cold weather. They sold the job to the Ecuadorians, telling them there was no need to spend money on a 600 psig starting air system. Quito, Ecuador, is about 5000 feet about sea level. I began by opening the crankcase doors, inspecting for rags or other stuff in the crankcase. We got some oil into the engine and fuel oil into the day tank. The Cleveland was well equipped with hand pumps for priming the fuel injection system and prelube. I put two men on the hand pumps and we soon had oil pressure and fuel pressure. I bled the injection lines per my manual. We barred the engine over a few turns to be sure. We had a receiver full of starting air at 200 psig. I hit the lever to start the engine. The old Navy Clevelands often were started by "direct air", having a starting air "distributor" to send a shot of starting air into each cylinder. The air acted directly on the pistons to get the engine rolling. The Cleveland rolled off fine on air. I was satisfied the engine was ready to go, so when we had full air pressure again, I hit the lever to start and moved the fuel rack lever to "start", or full rack position. Nada- nothing- happened other than the engine rolling nicely on air. We spent a day screwing around with me chasing everything imaginable, breaking lines at the injectors and having the men keep on the hand fuel priming pump. I had fuel, I had a free and open air intake, but I did not have combustion. The Cleveland did have a Roots Blower, same as a Detroit, and it only had a woven wire screen over the intake, no air filter. A second day passed, and now people who were going to work in the toothpaste tube plant were standing around expectantly. When the Cleveland came to life, they'd all have jobs. The people who were going to work in that plant brought their families, so I was really feeling the pressure. Everyone thought the engineer from the USA was going to make things happen for them, and I was letting them down. There was no one I could call- no cell phones and no email or internet in those days.

    On the third day of my attempts to bring the Cleveland to life, I suddenly remembered driving those grain trucks on the Western slope, and a lot of lights went off in my mind. I knew that at sea level, the air is a lot more dense and has more oxygen, so 120 psig shop air would crank the Cleveland and get it rolling fast enough to fire the fuel charges. I knew to get a Detroit 8V71 firing at 5000 ft altitude, we used ether. At Quito's elevation, the air was not dense enough. I knew there was no way I could get 600 psig starting air, and was stuck with the 200 psig starting air.

    I knew in the USA, I'd go get a can of starting ether and give a shot into the air intake on a diesel with a weaker battery. I looked at the Ecuadorian mechanics, and by then, I'd learned some Spanish, so said something like 'necessitamos ether', hoping the word for "ether" was close enough in Spanish that they'd recognize it. Sure enough, they started yelling: "Si, Ingieniero, claro ! Eter ! ". Two guys went running out of the plant's yard where the genset was. A few minutes later, they were back with a one pint glass bottle with a screwed lid. It was ether, straight from a nearby surgeon's private clinic as I was to find out. I opened the bottle and there was no doubt about what it was. It was just like what I'd smelled when a doctor KO'd me to remove my toncils in his office. Now I was in a real quandry. I had no idea how much raw ether to give the Cleveland. It was not a matter of giving a couple of shots with an aerosol can. I got one of those conical paper drinking cups and cut a tiny little cone off the bottom of it. I unscrewed a 1/4" npt plug in the air manifold as a place to get the ether into it. I had some of the men ready with a piece of tarp and some boards to smother the engine's air intake if we had a runaway. Lastly in my preparations, I disconnected the governor from the fuel rack linkage so I could hold the racks closed or open depending on what the ether did to that engine.

    The time had come, and I poured what seemed like a tiny amount of ether into that little paper cone, and dumped it into the scavenge air box. I screwed the pipe plug back in and got up on the step where the engine controls were, up at the blower end of the engine. I cautioned everyone to stay well away from the engine and out of line with the crankcase doors. With that, I gave a yell of "Cuidad !" and hit the starting air. The Cleveland rolled a couple of turns on air, then the ether took hold. The Cleveland took off, sounding like the hammers of hell were loose inside her. Brown smoke was pouring out of the stack, then gray smoke. There was this big mechanical tachometer on the old Navy instrument panel. The needle of the tach went past the highest reading on the scale and buried itself to the right side of the dial. As for me, I was paralyzed, knowing I had a runaway engine, things happening too fast to get the guys up to smother the engine. All I could think of was that I was probably going to die, grenaded to bits by pieces of the Cleveland, and hoped someone would get my remains back to my parents. The whole thing probably lasted a few seconds. Somewhere in all of it, I actually heard the clank of the mechanic overspeed trip. Now, I was wondering if the generator windings were shredded wheat. As the engine finally got done with the ether run and began to coast down, I came to my senses. I grabbed the fuel rack linkage and brought it out to about half rack. The engine fired right up with a healthy knock from the injectors. I pulled the overspeed reset (something you should not do on a rolling engine), and matched the rack arm position to where the governor arm was, and put the Cleveland on the governor.

    I brought the Cleveland back up to 1200 rpm and looked at the generator instruments. The exciter was making voltage, so I closed in the field breaker and had 3 phase power. The windings had held. The men were smacking me on the back and the whole crowd was cheering, not knowing how close they came to not having jobs. As for me, I had the men close in the breakers to the plant and bump a few motors to check phase rotation. The motors were running backwards. I shut the Cleveland so the plant electricans could swap two phases on the generator connections. It gave me time to grab some wiping rags and run into the brush. I threw my undershorts away and cleaned myself up. I have no idea what my heartrate went to.

    I got back, and the Cleveland, having been warmed up a bit, fired right off with no ether. I explained thru one of the Ecuadorian engineers who'd lived in New Jersey, that we needed a better means of metering that first shot of ether each morning or they'd bust the rings on the pistons or worse. Another trip was made to the surgeon, and the men had a large glass hypodermic syringe and needle. We settled on a very tiny amount of liquid ether as being sufficient to goose the Cleveland into life each morning. We ran the Cleveland under load, and then changed oil and filter elements. With the Cleveland under load, I was then able to un-do all the monkeying around I had done in trying to get the engine to start, opening up the micrometer adjustment screws on the unit injectors. The Cleveland was well instrumented and had a pyrometer with thermocouples for each cylinder, so I could adjust injectors to balance out the cylinders. I was having a fine time, and learned never to overlook the altitude a diesel engine has to run at, and never to trust used diesel engine salesmen to provide the right starting systems. What it also did was to develop a deep respect for the Cleveland engines and the Columbia generators. I have never seen a Columbia generator since then. God alone knows what the WWII specs called for, but having windings staying tight to the field core and exciter armature core at something well beyond overspeed is something I never would have believed. Similarly, the Cleveland was able to stand a runaway and shrug it off. Beautiful engine inside- polished con rods as I recall, very well designed and built. That was one engine that should have "grenaded" when she ran away on ether, but like a spooked horse, she bolted for a few moments, then settled down to a nice trot.

    One thing about the Ecuadorians was they loved to take a good drink, so with the Cleveland making power, they broke out some whisky and beer. I needed it after the "startup". I have never been around an engine that did truly grenade, and I am glad of it.

  4. #23
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    Another great tale Joe M, is there any end to such stories you can tell? I certainly hope not.

    Thanks for taking the time to write that out.

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    In Sturgis, Mich. at the city power plant there is 2 V16 Clevelands that they used for emergency power. They are no longer used since they aren't big enough to run even part of the city anymore. They plant engineer told me if his chief operator wasn't on vacation he would fire one of the old gals up. The chief operator was the only one that understood the finer points of starting and running the old sub engine.

    A 6000 HP Bessemer V20 was now the main back up. Got to walk on the catwalks and the size of the injector lines to each cylinder were simply amazing. You know an engine is getting "big" when it has its own stairs, catwalks.

    That is towards the top of my personal bucket list. I LOVE to hear and feel the character of machinery that was built with pride and tons o'cast iron.

    Only engine that I have watched, sorta,(hard to see with your head trying to do the ostrich move), was a Cat 3406 on a dynomo. Blew side of block out when one of the rods decided that it had enough. When the rod decided to see fresh air and daylight it also removed a nice 8" section of the cam, and deposited it in the side of the engine cell wall.

    I treat all engines with extreme caution and respect. but also have the need to get up close and personal with them when they are running right.

    Marshall

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEvans View Post
    I would say that truck is around 1950 a few years eithe way.
    Seconded. Had to go and Wiki-up the 1952 build-date of "East Branch Clarion River Lake" - the Earthfill dam having been one of Dad's projects - where I first saw that general type as a kid. They all looked clean and new at the time.

    Also bor-ing -compared to the exotic shapes of R.G. LeTourneau's scraper and pan rigs.

    Good enough at what they were asked to do, Euclids were - go play in the mud, basically.

    Can't see how they'd be worth even half-a-damn as a general-purpose over-the-road - nor even shop-yard truck.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Michaels View Post
    There are a few places around the USA where people who collect old construction equipment gather to "play" with their old iron. That old Euc needs to be put to pasture there. No modern contractor, mine, or quarry would use it in regular service.
    There's a group like that few miles down the road from me. They dig, haul, dump, dig some more. Like my childhood Tonka days come to life. National_Pike_212 » Page 2 of 7

    The engine is an inline. Not sure if it's 6 or 8. I have pictures I'll post when I get to the other comp. I didn't make a note of it, but in the pic I can kinda make out Detroit Diesel on the top.

    I'd heard the term "Euc" in reference to big equipment, but I never knew it was short for Euclid. I figured it was Yuke.

    I figured it was much older than 1950's. I was thinking pre-WWII.

    As for the military 6V53, those were used in the M113 series of APC's. Most of the trucks had inline 6's, but it may have shown up in some wheeled vehicles.

    Vince

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    Back to Detroits........... I saw one about 35 years ago that still has me scratching my head. I got into a pretty heated argument with the owner of the marina where I used to keep my boat. The argument was what full well appeared to be a 4-53 marine conversion Detroit. He swore to me that it was a "51 series" and that it didn't have the usual in-head exhaust valves. After a very quick lookie, I told him that it was a 4-53 and that he was full of shit.

    One thing lead to another and after a $50 bet, he pulled off the valve cover and I gave the whole thing a little closer inspection. Sure enough, the only thing under the "valve" cover (which looked like a standard 4-53 valve cover) were the unit injectors and their associated rocker arms, but NO exhaust valves? ? ? ? ? Also, a closer inspection of the outside of the engine revealed that the exhaust manifold was mounted to the side of the block and not the head! ! It was an expensive lesson to learn, and I have never seen another one since then.

    Anyone here ever seen one? ? ? That was the first and ONLY one I have ever seen and I have worked on my share of Detroits over the years!

    Also, another way to kill a runaway Detroit is to unload a CO2 fire extinguisher into the air intake, especially if that runaway was caused by hard, brittle seals in the blower after setting for a long time..

    Frank

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    Yep there was such a thing as a 51 series,never saw one in the flesh though.

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    Had a 6V53 in the surplus military FWD mobile offroad crane at the museum. Next to a big radial aircraft engine, I loved to hear that thing scream more than anything. Any opportunity to get it on the roads for transport was ripe for running it WFO. That was the only time it ever got really run hard, so I took advantage every chance I got to keep her blown out. Much time as it spent idling or running at low speed during picks, it needed it.

    I also owned, for a short time, a Lincoln 400 amp welder with a GM 2-53. It was locked up when I got it, and I traded it to a friend for some Bobcat work. He discovered there is a third way to kill one... let it flood and freeze. Was outside a shop where it got submerged in a flood. The flood locked the pistons up in the liners, but the freeze of water in the little blower broke the rotors. He managed to salvage some old railroad reefer car bits (3-53s) and find a set of rotors and got the thing running again. That was about 10yrs ago and I saw him towing it a few weeks ago, headed to put it to work. It was finally dated as a 1957 model.

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    Some detroit lessons learned the hard way by me.

    The emergency kill is for when one of the throttle racks stick on an old motor(one without spring loaded rack arms).

    If you trip the emergency and the blower seals are bad all that will change is the smoke comeing out the chimney will turn black.

    Lopeing at idle is an improperly adjusted buffer spring.

    2 stroke dont mind low oil pressure at idle cause the nature of the beast (only the upper bearing is in contact with the crank).

    No suction stroke so no partial vacuum to draw oil up the cylinder walls.

    Slobering is excess oil comeing out the airbox drains cause the oil rings are designed to draw oil from the crank case and lube the piston skirts at full throttle

    and boost not at idle.

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    Here are two shots of the engine. Left them full size. On the first, you can barely make out "DIESEL" on the valve cover. Looks like a 6, unless there are 2 more cylinders hiding back further.

    I'm sure someone here will recognize the exact model, year, and what month it was made based on the manifold bolts or something obscure!

    Vince

    img_1979.jpg

    img_1980.jpg

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    There's a Euc in a field not far from here, with rear axle solid to the frame, no springs, and a 6-71 Detroit engine. I'll see if I can get pictures next time I am nearby.

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    Looks like a 6-71. That's an air compressor on the right in the first pic, so it has air brakes. You can see the super charger at the bottom in the second pic.

    I worked on an old Austin Western grader with one of those engines. What a beast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB3AHE View Post
    Back to Detroits........... I saw one about 35 years ago that still has me scratching my head. I got into a pretty heated argument with the owner of the marina where I used to keep my boat. The argument was what full well appeared to be a 4-53 marine conversion Detroit. He swore to me that it was a "51 series" and that it didn't have the usual in-head exhaust valves. After a very quick lookie, I told him that it was a 4-53 and that he was full of shit.

    One thing lead to another and after a $50 bet, he pulled off the valve cover and I gave the whole thing a little closer inspection. Sure enough, the only thing under the "valve" cover (which looked like a standard 4-53 valve cover) were the unit injectors and their associated rocker arms, but NO exhaust valves? ? ? ? ? Also, a closer inspection of the outside of the engine revealed that the exhaust manifold was mounted to the side of the block and not the head! ! It was an expensive lesson to learn, and I have never seen another one since then.

    Anyone here ever seen one? ? ? That was the first and ONLY one I have ever seen and I have worked on my share of Detroits over the years!
    Frank
    Frank, I had a look in a 1959 book The Modern Diesel Engine by D. H. Smith - he mentions a new valveless two-stroke by GM for Chev. 4 -4 1/2 ton trucks.
    Square bore and stroke 4.1 x 4.1, 216.5 cu. in. Four cylinder. Roots-type blower, loop scavenge, 90hp @ 2,800 rpm. 216/4=54 cu in.

    Wonder if this was the engine you saw? There is a cross-section of the top half of the engine in this book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter S View Post
    Frank, I had a look in a 1959 book The Modern Diesel Engine by D. H. Smith - he mentions a new valveless two-stroke by GM for Chev. 4 -4 1/2 ton trucks.
    Square bore and stroke 4.1 x 4.1, 216.5 cu. in. Four cylinder. Roots blower, loop scavenge, 90hp @ 2,800 rpm. 216/4=54 cu in.

    Wonder if this was the engine you saw? There is a cross-section of the top half of the engine in this book.

    Peter,
    that is a real good possibility! That one was the only one that I have ever seen, period. It cost me $50 to lose that argument. That one was a full marine conversion with a wet manifold, Velvet Drive transmission, Jabsco water pump, etc. I have never seen another one since then. 53 series and 71 series are still common as dirt around here for non automotive applications.

    90 hp doesn't sound like much to haul a 4 ton truck around. It had to be a low-geared screamer. I still remember an old Clark forklift we used to have with a 2-53 in it. At idle it used to sound like someone ringing a bell instead of any trace of a "diesel knock."

    I'll have to have a lookie for that book, sounds like it could be interesting, I like learning about "unusual" engines..........

    Thanks!

    Frank

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    Another Detroit lesson.

    Any Detroit, sufficiently aged, will still run with the blower plate tripped. It will be low on power and will smoke badly, but it will run.

    I once went to look at a gravel truck with a 318 (8v71). The owner wasn't there, but a couple of other truckers fired it up for me. It was cold enough it wouldn't fire on its own. One guy cranked the engine while the other guy put the either nozzle right by the external hinge on the blower plate and gave it a shot. I thought to myself WTF? But she hit instantly, on at least 4 holes. I left without the truck.

    As far as 90 hp for a 4 ton truck, you have to remember things were different in 1959. A 270 or 290 hp Cummins was a common engine for over the road trucks up into the '70's. That would have been 40 ton in many states, or more if you drove around the scales.

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    If I had to make an educated guess, I would say late 50's early 60's. The engine is probably a pre-"detroit diesel" badged "General Motors Diesel".It has early model governor/throttle set-up. It may well be a 2 valve (per cylinder) head. The truck may have been re-powered at some point with a newer engine, though. Might be a Clarke trans with a "mudstick" for low range. Just my 2 cents. PB

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    Back when I worked for the power company, we had Euclid scrapers for coal buggies. Each had two Detroit engines, one was 600 HP, and there was one that was about 300 HP - as I recall, the larger was in the rear, and the smaller was in front. They did the job for many years - they were nearly 30 years old when I first saw them. They were used to both haul & spread coal on the pile, and to haul it from the pile to the plant.

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    Inn a previous life I operated a Brownehoist locomotive crane.
    A 195o's 6-71. These were the screechiest of the whole lot, newer ones had a different blower.
    That thing was right behind me separated by a sheet metal partition,
    A the end of the day ones brain did not track too well.
    Around 1960 -61 we were blessed with a new one, SOoo quite in comparison!
    One could work off their frustrations tho unloading scrap with a 7200 lb. magnet.

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    I've got a 3-53 Detroit in my shop right now that is
    going in my 1953 IHC pickup truck. Got a ZF-6 speed
    to go behind it out of an F-350. Got to make the
    bellhousing adapter, but that should be not too hard.
    The engine starts with less than a full crank and jumps
    to life. Even after sitting for 3 years in my buddy's shop.
    (got a tiny lawn mower fuel tank rigged). Should be a
    fun truck to drive. I only am doing this because the
    factory IHC 220 I-6 is hurt bad, and barely runs. Otherwise
    I would have kept the truck original. I think I will box the
    frame due to the extra weight, do it right.

    -Doozer

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