karsthuntr
Plastic
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2017
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Peter A. Frasse metal Lathe
- Thread starter karsthuntr
- Start date
- Replies 13
- Views 6,001
Joe in NH
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2007
- Location
- Stratham, Cow Hampshire
Frasse was a retailer.
I think the lathe may be a middle-age Seneca Falls "Star" lathe.
A previous discussion on the forum about "The Reliable Lathe" (middle pix) being a Seneca Falls production. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/need-help-identify-lathe-182232/
Since it seems complete for treadle, this one will actually sell for a premium over the conventionally motor powered lathe.
In the case of the Barnes Lathes, a motor powered reasonably complete plug & play electric motor driven lathe will sell for about $400. Star lathes are slightly larger (think more capability) so one might ask $500 for an equivalently appointed Star. (Which lags behind a South Bend similarly appointed at perhaps $800.)
Add treadle (velocipede in the case of Barnes) and you jump the value up to about $1000 for a reasonably complete machine. Think a similar boost in value for the Star - with perhaps the top limit being $1000 since the Star, while larger, will be no more functional when pedal powered, limited as it is to user strength and endurance. The treadle adds unique factor but doesn't add functionality in the case of the Star.
It is still possible to find treadle machines in chicken coops nationwide. The occasional surface of "grampy's lathe" tends to hold down pricing - and makes what pricing that happens more "hit or miss." Sometimes its possible to get a real deal on a full treadle lathe out of Grampy's chicken coop simply because the seller wants it gone, or isn't aware of the market.
But these situations are becoming rarer and rarer.
Joe in NH
I think the lathe may be a middle-age Seneca Falls "Star" lathe.
A previous discussion on the forum about "The Reliable Lathe" (middle pix) being a Seneca Falls production. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/need-help-identify-lathe-182232/
Since it seems complete for treadle, this one will actually sell for a premium over the conventionally motor powered lathe.
In the case of the Barnes Lathes, a motor powered reasonably complete plug & play electric motor driven lathe will sell for about $400. Star lathes are slightly larger (think more capability) so one might ask $500 for an equivalently appointed Star. (Which lags behind a South Bend similarly appointed at perhaps $800.)
Add treadle (velocipede in the case of Barnes) and you jump the value up to about $1000 for a reasonably complete machine. Think a similar boost in value for the Star - with perhaps the top limit being $1000 since the Star, while larger, will be no more functional when pedal powered, limited as it is to user strength and endurance. The treadle adds unique factor but doesn't add functionality in the case of the Star.
It is still possible to find treadle machines in chicken coops nationwide. The occasional surface of "grampy's lathe" tends to hold down pricing - and makes what pricing that happens more "hit or miss." Sometimes its possible to get a real deal on a full treadle lathe out of Grampy's chicken coop simply because the seller wants it gone, or isn't aware of the market.
But these situations are becoming rarer and rarer.
Joe in NH
Joe Michaels
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Location
- Shandaken, NY, USA
Frasse survived until recently (and may still exist) as a supplier of metals in the NYC area. By the 1960's, Frasse was a jobber supplying metals and plastics to machine shops and manufacturers. I do not know if they are still in existence or have been gobbled up by another larger firm. This is a first for me, seeing Frasse's name on a lathe. As Joe in NH notes, Frasse was the dealer. On a larger scale, Joseph Ryerson, of Chicago was a metals jobber who also sold machine tools. Ryerson was large enough to have machine tools made with their own name on the castings- by machine tool builders in their plants, not Ryerson's.
The lathe you have is old, no question about it. Even the conversion to electric motor drive is old, judging by the appearance of the motor. It does not look a hard-used, neglected, or abused lathe. The tooling with the lathe- chucks, faceplates, steady rest and follower rest are what can drive the value up. Common stock items like toolholders, toolbits, lathe centers, lathe dogs, drill chucks with arbors are all good to have, but not hard to come by nor expensive. It is the tooling unique to the lathe- the steady and follower rests, and to a lesser extent the chucks and faceplates (which require a back plate bored and threaded to fit the spindle nose on this type of lathe) which can drive the value of a lathe like this up. The fact the lathe is clean, has a patina of old oil, has all its original crank handles and levers- nothing busted and brazed back together, nothing replaced with something handy (like a small lathe dog for a crank handle), also increases the value.
The other item that is critical if you want to cut screw threads with this lathe are the change gears. This lathe had a set of loose gears which were made up according to the brass "chart" to enable different pitches of threads to be cut. If the change gears are on hand, this will also drive up the value. Missing change gears drives the value down.
The important thing is this little lathe is mainly intact. It needs to be kept out of the clutches of the types who would take its legs for an "industrial table" in some yuppie loft housing and junk the lathe. Hopefully, it will go to a good home. Value depends on what you are looking for in the way of a lathe and what you intend to use the lathe for. If you intend to make small parts on a hobby basis, and are not looking to work to tenths of thousandths, this little lathe is fine. It will require the use of high speed steel toolbits rather than carbide tooling. It is a simple, classic, and slow turning little lathe built in an era when lathe cutting tools were forged from high carbon tool steel. This type of cutting tool required low cutting speeds.
The other determining factor for value with used/older machine tools is your geographic location. Some parts of the USA are fairly plentiful in terms of finding good used machine tools for home shop use at reasonable prices. Other parts of the USA are almost deserts in this regard, so prices of used machine tools are higher in those areas.
Price alone should not be the deciding factor as to whether you buy this lathe. You need to ask yourself what kind of jobs you want to do with it, and whether you want a classic antique to have the experience of using such a lathe vs something more modern with more versatility (and readily available parts and tooling) like a Logan or South Bend.
The lathe you have is old, no question about it. Even the conversion to electric motor drive is old, judging by the appearance of the motor. It does not look a hard-used, neglected, or abused lathe. The tooling with the lathe- chucks, faceplates, steady rest and follower rest are what can drive the value up. Common stock items like toolholders, toolbits, lathe centers, lathe dogs, drill chucks with arbors are all good to have, but not hard to come by nor expensive. It is the tooling unique to the lathe- the steady and follower rests, and to a lesser extent the chucks and faceplates (which require a back plate bored and threaded to fit the spindle nose on this type of lathe) which can drive the value of a lathe like this up. The fact the lathe is clean, has a patina of old oil, has all its original crank handles and levers- nothing busted and brazed back together, nothing replaced with something handy (like a small lathe dog for a crank handle), also increases the value.
The other item that is critical if you want to cut screw threads with this lathe are the change gears. This lathe had a set of loose gears which were made up according to the brass "chart" to enable different pitches of threads to be cut. If the change gears are on hand, this will also drive up the value. Missing change gears drives the value down.
The important thing is this little lathe is mainly intact. It needs to be kept out of the clutches of the types who would take its legs for an "industrial table" in some yuppie loft housing and junk the lathe. Hopefully, it will go to a good home. Value depends on what you are looking for in the way of a lathe and what you intend to use the lathe for. If you intend to make small parts on a hobby basis, and are not looking to work to tenths of thousandths, this little lathe is fine. It will require the use of high speed steel toolbits rather than carbide tooling. It is a simple, classic, and slow turning little lathe built in an era when lathe cutting tools were forged from high carbon tool steel. This type of cutting tool required low cutting speeds.
The other determining factor for value with used/older machine tools is your geographic location. Some parts of the USA are fairly plentiful in terms of finding good used machine tools for home shop use at reasonable prices. Other parts of the USA are almost deserts in this regard, so prices of used machine tools are higher in those areas.
Price alone should not be the deciding factor as to whether you buy this lathe. You need to ask yourself what kind of jobs you want to do with it, and whether you want a classic antique to have the experience of using such a lathe vs something more modern with more versatility (and readily available parts and tooling) like a Logan or South Bend.
Exactly the lathe I have !
After months of searching the internet,and perusing at least hundreds of photos, the lathe I own is 99 44/100 % the same one as this, with the following difference, the apron on mine has the so-called bulges as opposed to the straight sides pictured here. I can finally sleep at night ! THANK YOU !!!
After months of searching the internet,and perusing at least hundreds of photos, the lathe I own is 99 44/100 % the same one as this, with the following difference, the apron on mine has the so-called bulges as opposed to the straight sides pictured here. I can finally sleep at night ! THANK YOU !!!
moonlight machine
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Location
- marysville ohio
Look closely at the thread chart between the bull gear and the chuck,
The
Reliable
Lathe
Is this the brand? Anyone heard of a Reliable lathe?
The
Reliable
Lathe
Is this the brand? Anyone heard of a Reliable lathe?
rivett608
Diamond
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2002
- Location
- Kansas City, Mo.
Very rare to find a lathe of this vintage with complete foot drive AND in what looks like very good, kept indoor and lightly used condition.
There are threads on this site that state that Reliable was a jobber or selller/supplier and this is most likely a "middle age" Seneca lathe,older than Star models. I am thinking 1860s/1870s? The tumbler arm is different than later Seneca's and the knurled hand nuts on the threading gears are different than the star-type nuts on Star lathes, both of these points have been hard for me to match until finding this and one I other Reliable. Unfortunately I don't have the threading chart,legs or the treadle as this one was converted to electric decades ago,but I am reasonably certain it is a Seneca.
Andy FitzGibbon
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2005
- Location
- Elkins WV
Definitely made by Seneca Falls.
I have a lathe headstock kicking around somewhere, not made by Seneca Falls, with a different Frasse badge on it. As I recall, it says "XLNT MACHINE TOOLS". Space was at a premium...
Andy
I have a lathe headstock kicking around somewhere, not made by Seneca Falls, with a different Frasse badge on it. As I recall, it says "XLNT MACHINE TOOLS". Space was at a premium...
Andy
Ed Hobbs
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2006
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Your Lathe
To me, it also looks like it was made by Seneca Falls.
When I look at an enlarged version of the first picture showing the entire lathe particularly the lower part, the lower legs do not appear to be the same as the ones used on Seneca Falls foot powered lathes. I am attaching a shot of the earlier model of the Star foot powered version which had a somewhat different web design than later models. SF used a very distinctive two independent pedal design as you can see in the picture.
Frasse, in the tool/machinery business goes back to 1844 according to Ken Cope in his book on foot powered machinery. In the lathe line, it looks like they primarily sold wood lathes and used names like "Leader" and "Briggs". Ken shows several small cuts that look to have come from ads in something like a magazine offering both 9 and 10 inch foot powered versions of what looks to be SF made foot powered lathes. It was common for companies to also offer these lathes in line shaft version especially in the early 1900's.
I have a "Leader" foot powered wood lathe that is some kind of sweet to run. Have seen one identical that had the Frasse name cast in the legs with NY. Yes, they were distributors or as they said "Proprietors" of both wood and metal lathes. Like today, if you buy enough of something the maker will put your name on it.
Over the years, have had several SF Star metal lathes and current have their wood lathe the Crown. Since SF made way, way less machines than Barnes, it is highly unlikely you would ever find the foot powered parts that always seem to be missing. They are much harder to reproduce. In my opinion, SF did make a more robust lathe but did come along after Barnes so had an opportunity to do things differently.
Nice looking lathe. Hope this helps. Keep in pedaling!! Thanks Ed
To me, it also looks like it was made by Seneca Falls.
When I look at an enlarged version of the first picture showing the entire lathe particularly the lower part, the lower legs do not appear to be the same as the ones used on Seneca Falls foot powered lathes. I am attaching a shot of the earlier model of the Star foot powered version which had a somewhat different web design than later models. SF used a very distinctive two independent pedal design as you can see in the picture.
Frasse, in the tool/machinery business goes back to 1844 according to Ken Cope in his book on foot powered machinery. In the lathe line, it looks like they primarily sold wood lathes and used names like "Leader" and "Briggs". Ken shows several small cuts that look to have come from ads in something like a magazine offering both 9 and 10 inch foot powered versions of what looks to be SF made foot powered lathes. It was common for companies to also offer these lathes in line shaft version especially in the early 1900's.
I have a "Leader" foot powered wood lathe that is some kind of sweet to run. Have seen one identical that had the Frasse name cast in the legs with NY. Yes, they were distributors or as they said "Proprietors" of both wood and metal lathes. Like today, if you buy enough of something the maker will put your name on it.
Over the years, have had several SF Star metal lathes and current have their wood lathe the Crown. Since SF made way, way less machines than Barnes, it is highly unlikely you would ever find the foot powered parts that always seem to be missing. They are much harder to reproduce. In my opinion, SF did make a more robust lathe but did come along after Barnes so had an opportunity to do things differently.
Nice looking lathe. Hope this helps. Keep in pedaling!! Thanks Ed
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
With thread gears $300 to $1,000. With not the gears not very much..
i also have this lathe. I inherited it along with my great uncle Charlie's collection of tools. I remember the lathe from my childhood visit to his home in New Rochelle. I was about 6 at the time - that was the early 50's and i remember getting excited peddling it. My father always referred to it as Uncle Charlies German lathe. ????????????? I have been trying to find more info on it and this is the best thread I have found although having looked at numerous Star lathe pics I find substantial differences in the treadle & flywheel styles. The Peter Frasse tag is missing but the shadow and pin holes look identical to the picture in the first post. Could Frasse have been an importer of these machines? The machine I have is in great original condition with all change gears, various chucks, face plates, compound, center rest, tail stock, and boxes of tools. when i get her cleaned up I will post some pics. Thanks
Ed Hobbs
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2006
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Would love to see some pictures of what you have especially if it has the foot powered parts. Thanks Ed
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