What's new
What's new

physics of a flat belt and pulleys?

metalmagpie

Titanium
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Seattle
I am working on a camelback drill press. It has a motor mounted up around eye height with a 3.25" flat pulley with a slight crown on it. Below that on the jackshaft is an 18" flat pulley. Both pulleys are slightly over 3" wide.

Today a friend helped me clip a 3" flat belt cut to size. It fits well.

At a PMer's suggestion, I fitted the machine with a drum switch. Testing the belt in the forward direction, I noticed it ran towards the back side of both pulleys. When I reversed the drum switch, the belt ran towards the front of the pulleys. In both situations the belt is very stable and runs smoothly.

I'm breaking my brain trying to think of what could cause this.

Unrelated flat belt question: I have heard that leather belts stretch quite a bit. This is all theoretical. If a stretched leather belt were clipped together such that the pin could be pulled, then it would be possible to break the belt in the middle and reconnect it. What if the user gave one side of the belt a half twist or even a full twist? Seems to me that would effectively shorten the belt length, no?

metalmagpie
 
I'm thinking the motor and jackshaft are slightly out of line with each other. If the motor was a bit cocked, it would throw the belt like you are talking about.
"back in the day" it was common to cut a little out of a loose belt and reconnect it.
 
Belt too tight or old, pulley axes not parallel - both can cause that kind of thing. putting a twists in one side of the belt will add a bit of tension, twisting the belt around to reverse the drive will put a bit more in if you don't mind the drive reversing direction.

Depending on the belt composition it can stretch quite a bit- old leather will stretch a lot particularly when humid. Trimming off the clips and putting on a new set is the usual way to tweak up tension.
 
Not having the splice ABSOLUTELY square [one edge of the belt will be a skosh shorter] will cause the belt to creep to one side of the pulleys [ask me how I know:angry:] Never tried running it in reverse to see if the situation reversed itself.
 
Technically, the pulleys don't have to be absolutely parallel. But they do have to be sufficiently parallel that the crowned pulley can steer the belt in either direction.
 
I found that old (worn) plain leather belts often had difficulty tracking regardless of crown, even when shafts were very parallel. Perhaps due to variations in stretch over the length- some regions stretching more than others, essentially steering the belt. I don't think more tension is likely to fix belt creep. Sometimes variations in load can cause the belts to creep, up to and including throwing the belt off the pulley entirely.
 
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The belt is brand new. The question about a leather belt was unrelated.

I will check to see if the lacings are truly square to the belt.

You guys are amazing.

metalmagpie
 
Here fid a site that gives some belt information:

Crowned Pulleys — Which Option is Right for You? | Sparks Belting

We used to push a belt away from a shoulder step with a hammer handle. If it was pushed away with a light push is was considered OK. If it did not push with a light push then the pressure/rubbing could damage the belt. Best is tracking with not rubbing at a pulley shoulder.

Shimming the motor end could also make a belt run better.

The old tar-like belt dressing was much better but I think it can no longer be found(?).

Dressing for rubber belts is not good for leather.

Neatsfoot oil and hanks might be best nowadays (?).
 
Shame that you already spent the bucks on a leather belt. The "new" belts, particularly the ones that are yellow on one side and green on the other are amazing. The one on our camelback is at last 40 years old. Doesn't strech, just drives when needed. Only downside is that they have to glued to length when new, but just tell the seller what length you need. they will glue with the joint square.

My thought is that the only place for a leather belt is if you are tryong to replicate an old shop. Having said that, our small planer has leather that I put on about 65 years ago, but the belts are slid off the pulleys only when the machine is needed--darn seldom.

Herb
 
Ideally the pulleys should be:

1) aligned with each other. Plumb bob can test this.

2) both pulley shafts need to be parallel to each other in the vertical direction

3) both shafts need to be parallel to each other in the horizontal direction.

Any deviation from parallelism in either axis will cause the belt to track to the side.
 
The key to diagnosing and fixing flat belt problems is understanding
how crowned pulleys work. The crown is there to make the belt ride
off the pulley, to one side or the other. Since you have 2 pulleys,
the belt will try to ride off one side of the first pulley, and the
opposite side of the second pulley. Because of the belt wanting to
ride off opposite sides of the 2 pulleys, the belt tries to get tight.
The only way the belt could get loose when it trues to ride off the
opposite sides of the 2 pulleys, is if the center radii of the crowns
of both pulleys shared the came common origin point, which would only
be possible if the crowns of both pulleys and very small radii and
the pulleys are very close together. Both quite uncommon scenarios.
So since the crown is causing the belt to wander of opposite sides
of the 2 pulleys, and the belt tension gets tighter, the belt then
rides back away from the edges of the pulleys, back towards the crown,
and gets slightly looser again. From the inertia of returning to center
and getting slack, the belt rides over the crowns of both pulleys, and
then it tries to wander off the other opposite sides of 2 pulleys.
Tension becomes tighter, and the belt goes back to the crown, getting
looser, jumps over the crown, and the belt diagonally tried to cross
the pulley centers again. This back and forth, loose and tight and loose
keeps happening over and over again. Watch a flat belt running sometime.
You will see it ride to the right of the pulley, then to the left of the
pulley, then right and left and so on and so on. If the shafts are not
parallel, this wandering cycle of tight and loose and changing sides of the
crown with the center of the belt will not happen, and things need to be
adjusted. But if the belt is slightly wandering, the crowns are doing their
job, of simultaneously trying to sluff the belt off, and then make it tight
again so it wanders back on. I wish I had a graphic to better explain it,
but this is really what is happening in a flat belt drive system that employs
crowns to induce tracking.

-=---Doozer
 
Maybe I misunderstand Doozer's detailed explanation, or maybe I disagree. I'll try to explain my understanding of how crown works, or why belts want to ride to the tight side

Imagine a belt on a slightly conical pulley, extending away at right angle to the shaft. Imagine a patch of the belt stuck to a patch of the pulley, near the point of tangency, on the side where the belt is approaching the pulley. If the pulley pulls on the belt (or vice-versa), the edge of the belt on the larger diameter will pull harder than the opposite or looser edge. If the resistance of the belt is along its centerline, stronger pull at one edge will try to rotate or swing the belt toward the tighter edge, in the (tangent) plane of the belt. The part of the tight edge of the belt that is approaching tangency will be swung toward the high side, so as it contacts the pulley it will be a little higher up the cone (toward larger diameter) than the part that preceded it.......belt will steadily climb, at least until tension is so great that belt slips in the downward direction as fast as it wants to climb.
 
I have an exception "of necessity" to what Magneticanomaly has posted. Namely, in some applications, the flat face pulley is often the 'driver', as when driving 'tight and loose' pulleys on the driven shaft. The driver pulley is 'double width' to allow the belt to be shifted to either the tight or loose pulley. As such, this driver pulley is machined without any crown. The crowning on the tight and loose pulleys causes the belt to run where it is required.

An extreme example of this would be the flat belt drives used on some of the old cylindrical grinding machines. The driver pulley was a long, straight cylinder, long enough to allow full travel of the machine parts. Another extreme case of this principal was in the original Colt firearms factory in Hartford, CT. The factory used line shaft drives for the machine tools, and made much of the line shafting in the form of long cylinders or 'drums'. This was to allow positioning machine tools wherever needed along the line shafting without having to mount individual pulleys.

Another thing to remember with leather belting: as noted leather belting will lengthen with humidity and will become permanently stretched if left under tension. In the old line shaft shops, it was common practice to 'take down the belts' before long weekends or holiday breaks. This was done by 'throwing off' the belts. With the lineshafting running, a hammer handle or smooth wrench handle was often used to walk the running belt off the pulleys. Once that was done, the more fastidious shops had heavy wire hooks in place near the line shaft pulleys. The belting was hung on these hooks to keep it off the oily lineshafting. Lineshafting invariably became oily from oil seeping out the ends of the lineshaft hanger bearings. There was either a cast iron trough below each hanger bearing, or an old coffee can hung on wire to catch the oil. However, some oil did make it out along the shafting and mixed with airborne dust to form a kind of sludge. If the belting laid in this sludge when run off the pulleys, it would soak up plenty of the oil. I worked in shops where we 'ran the belts off' on Fridays in the summer months due to humidity and potential for the belts to stretch and 'take a set'. Monday mornings, we had the job of 'putting up the belts'. This was done with the foreman standing guard at the motor starters for the lineshaft motors to prevent accidental starting. Using stepladders, we climbed up and got the belting started on the pulleys and then used a variety of maneuvers to roll the lineshafting to get the belting fully on the pulleys. Usually this meant one guy was on the large pulley at the belt from the drive motor, getting leverage on the spokes or making like a hamster on the inside of a treadmill. Despite this, the shop had a cart made up to deal with slipping flat belts. The cart was something knocked together eons before from old lumber. On it, there was a 'Clipper' belt cutting shear, which cut the ends of belting to about 6" nice and square. There was also a Clipper belt lacing machine and plenty of packs of hooks and rawhide pins. If a belt was too slack, the cart was rolled over and a piece was taken out of the belt. How much taken out was usually a matter of experience on the part of the machinists. On a long flat belt that had gone slack from a combination of time, wear and humidity, it was not uncommon to see a chunk 2 to 3" taken out.

The sticky black belt dressing used was "Kling surface" and came in the form of a stick. Have'nt seen any of it in ages, but remember using it on running belts. Rosin can also be applied to leather belts to increase the friction.

As for non-leather belts: Hanford Mills has many lineshafts and many belts driving a variety of woodworking machinery. It is an old, drafty mill building with the tailrace from a water wheel running openly thru the bottom of the mill, so humidity is always present. Hanford Mills uses rubber/canvas belting, and lacing hooks to join the ends. This belting holds up quite well and seems less susceptible to humidity and stretch than leather belting.
 
As far as I know, only one pulley needs to be crowned. The belt will be stable then if the flat pulley is aligned right.

So I am not "buying" the opposing force idea Doozer suggests, assuming I understood correctly what he is saying.

I think all the opposing force is in ONE pulley, being the two "sides" of the crowned pulley..... as mentioned elsewhere, when centered on the crown, the forces are balanced.

The cylindrical grinder pulleys and Colt factory bear this out. I knew about the grinder pulleys deal before.
 
Did your oily lineshafts have rings loose on them, just turning and moving around back and forth as they saw fit? I think those rings were to prevent a heavy buildup of oil/dust or rust from forming.

metalmagpie

I have an exception "of necessity" to what Magneticanomaly has posted. Namely, in some applications, the flat face pulley is often the 'driver', as when driving 'tight and loose' pulleys on the driven shaft. The driver pulley is 'double width' to allow the belt to be shifted to either the tight or loose pulley. As such, this driver pulley is machined without any crown. The crowning on the tight and loose pulleys causes the belt to run where it is required.

An extreme example of this would be the flat belt drives used on some of the old cylindrical grinding machines. The driver pulley was a long, straight cylinder, long enough to allow full travel of the machine parts. Another extreme case of this principal was in the original Colt firearms factory in Hartford, CT. The factory used line shaft drives for the machine tools, and made much of the line shafting in the form of long cylinders or 'drums'. This was to allow positioning machine tools wherever needed along the line shafting without having to mount individual pulleys.

Another thing to remember with leather belting: as noted leather belting will lengthen with humidity and will become permanently stretched if left under tension. In the old line shaft shops, it was common practice to 'take down the belts' before long weekends or holiday breaks. This was done by 'throwing off' the belts. With the lineshafting running, a hammer handle or smooth wrench handle was often used to walk the running belt off the pulleys. Once that was done, the more fastidious shops had heavy wire hooks in place near the line shaft pulleys. The belting was hung on these hooks to keep it off the oily lineshafting. Lineshafting invariably became oily from oil seeping out the ends of the lineshaft hanger bearings. There was either a cast iron trough below each hanger bearing, or an old coffee can hung on wire to catch the oil. However, some oil did make it out along the shafting and mixed with airborne dust to form a kind of sludge. If the belting laid in this sludge when run off the pulleys, it would soak up plenty of the oil. I worked in shops where we 'ran the belts off' on Fridays in the summer months due to humidity and potential for the belts to stretch and 'take a set'. Monday mornings, we had the job of 'putting up the belts'. This was done with the foreman standing guard at the motor starters for the lineshaft motors to prevent accidental starting. Using stepladders, we climbed up and got the belting started on the pulleys and then used a variety of maneuvers to roll the lineshafting to get the belting fully on the pulleys. Usually this meant one guy was on the large pulley at the belt from the drive motor, getting leverage on the spokes or making like a hamster on the inside of a treadmill. Despite this, the shop had a cart made up to deal with slipping flat belts. The cart was something knocked together eons before from old lumber. On it, there was a 'Clipper' belt cutting shear, which cut the ends of belting to about 6" nice and square. There was also a Clipper belt lacing machine and plenty of packs of hooks and rawhide pins. If a belt was too slack, the cart was rolled over and a piece was taken out of the belt. How much taken out was usually a matter of experience on the part of the machinists. On a long flat belt that had gone slack from a combination of time, wear and humidity, it was not uncommon to see a chunk 2 to 3" taken out.

The sticky black belt dressing used was "Kling surface" and came in the form of a stick. Have'nt seen any of it in ages, but remember using it on running belts. Rosin can also be applied to leather belts to increase the friction.

As for non-leather belts: Hanford Mills has many lineshafts and many belts driving a variety of woodworking machinery. It is an old, drafty mill building with the tailrace from a water wheel running openly thru the bottom of the mill, so humidity is always present. Hanford Mills uses rubber/canvas belting, and lacing hooks to join the ends. This belting holds up quite well and seems less susceptible to humidity and stretch than leather belting.
 








 
Back
Top