please help with this old GE motor

metalmagpie · Jul 22, 2021

Nameplate:

Note the patent date of Nov. 12, 1912.

This machine came to me on a camelback drill press. The story on it is that it came out of a warehouse in South Lake Union in Seattle. Ford built Model T cars in that warehouse. My best guess is that this drill press dates from that time, and that it largely sat unused since. So a drill press from the Model T era could well have a pretty old motor.

The presenting problem is that when it runs, there is a gentle rattling noise coming out of the bearing boxes at each end. The noise changes significantly when I push on the shaft with a 3M pad.

There is oil in the oil baths.

See the oil cup lid to the right of that picture. This is a picture of the oil bath bearing box on an end bonnet. Inside that bearing box is a sling ring which turns slowly in the direction of the shaft, carrying oil up above where it can work its way down to the sleeve bearing.

In the above image you can see the ring inside the bearing box.

This is a 3 phase 1hp induction motor (no repulsion start). It has plain bearings. I can feel no side movement of the shaft, nor end play either. I have taken apart and repaired dozens of 3 phase motors. But this kind may have some wrinkles I don't know about. Do you know of any article or video which discusses repair of such a motor?

Do you have any idea what would make a plain bearing motor softly rattle?

metalmagpie

Aaron B · Jul 22, 2021

My first assumption would be the oil rings are making the noise. But putting pressure on the shaft shouldn't really affect them, so I'm not so sure.

If a bit of side load takes care of the issue, then it should be fine when belted up to the drill.

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JST · Jul 22, 2021

Maybe the oil ring rattling as it turns?

dalmatiangirl61 · Jul 22, 2021

metalmagpie said:
Do you have any idea what would make a plain bearing motor softly rattle?

The oil ring.

Just a Sparky · Jul 23, 2021

Rattling in old plain bearing motors like this is usually caused by insufficient oil in the oil wells or an oil that is too thin. When enough oil of sufficient viscosity is provided, the rings should float on a cushion of oil that pools in front of a wiper arm at top-dead-center of the bearing.

The wells should be filled with oil until it approaches the tops of the oil cups on the sides of the bearing boxes - they are there as a gauge of sorts.

Rattling could also be caused by the motor being tilted lengthwise or the rotor being pulled by belting, etc. such that it runs out of magnetic center, causing the shaft's end stops/cushions to vibrate. Usually that's not so much a soft rattle though.

Richard King · Jul 23, 2021

I suspect the felt or wicks are dried up and won't let oil to the bushings. Take it apart and replace them. I would assume the shaft is worn also. Locate a local electric motor repair place or do it yourself. These guys can supply the new bushings and probably tell you who to call to do the repair. They my also tell you how to do it if needed. www.gobeilco.com I would think the electrical motor repair company will install new motor leads and dip the stator in new varnish That's what I would do.

I see this company has a branch in Seattle. Electric Motor Repair - Cascade Machinery

johnoder · Jul 23, 2021

felt or wicks are dried up and won't let oil to the bushings

Ring oiled bearings in my experience have no felts or wicks - a great example being my 10 HP 1917 Westinghouse 865 RPM three phase motor, and even more obvious is any plain bearing taper journal Hendey lathe - Hendey having been nice enough to provide lift off covers on the inspection ports so you can watch the process of the ring bringing up oil and dumping it on the journal.

Really ancient (1905) L & S lathes added "buckets" to the ring

You can see them in the small cut away view here

metalmagpie · Jul 23, 2021

Just a Sparky said:
Rattling in old plain bearing motors like this is usually caused by insufficient oil in the oil wells or an oil that is too thin. When enough oil of sufficient viscosity is provided, the rings should float on a cushion of oil that pools in front of a wiper arm at top-dead-center of the bearing.

I can certainly use higher viscosity oil. I'm using light spindle oil now. What would you suggest? One guy who rebuilt a repulsion/induction motor on YouTube used Marvel Mystery Oil. Or maybe 90 weight gear oil?

metalmagpie

metalmagpie · Jul 23, 2021

Richard King said:
I suspect the felt or wicks are dried up and won't let oil to the bushings. Take it apart and replace them. I would assume the shaft is worn also. Locate a local electric motor repair place or do it yourself. These guys can supply the new bushings and probably tell you who to call to do the repair. They my also tell you how to do it if needed. www.gobeilco.com I would think the electrical motor repair company will install new motor leads and dip the stator in new varnish That's what I would do.

I see this company has a branch in Seattle. Electric Motor Repair - Cascade Machinery

Thank you, Rich. I don't have any reason to believe that the motor was run without proper lubrication which would have caused shaft wear. The journals are brass, so this should have taken the wear rather than the steel shaft. I'm going to try draining and flushing the oil baths and using heavier oil. If that fails to improve then I may indeed talk to Cascade. Thirty years ago there were at least half a dozen electric motor repair shops in Seattle. Now all that's left is the one at Cascade Machinery. Having a monopoly, I suspect their pricing may be prohibitive for this project.

metalmagpie

JST · Jul 23, 2021

Some gear oils may not be good for the bronze bearings.

I expect 30 weight oil should be OK, unless that is what you are using now. The ring oiling system gets lots of oil up there, and gets it into the bearing quite well, usually.

Aaron B · Jul 23, 2021

I'd venture that ISO 68 like DTE heavy medium, or non detergent 30 weight motor oil is a good place to start. Pretty sure they run Heavy Medium in the sleeve bearing motors at work.

Gear oil seems a bit thick for a sleeve bearing motor. 90 weight is around ISO 220.

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M.B. Naegle · Jul 23, 2021

I'm thinking the noise is the rings due to the wrong type of oil. Too thin and it doesn't carry up to where it's needed and the rings vibrate and bounce side to side. Too heavy and the rings will bounce around vertically, sticking to the shaft. ISO 68 like DTE heavy medium is what I use in the Hendey's ring oiled spindle bearings.

metalmagpie · Jul 23, 2021

The plot thickens. I drained and flushed (somewhat) the oil baths. Not real pretty - what came out looked like really nasty gray gravy. I put in some gear oil and retried. Maybe a little quieter but still rattling. I took a lead hammer and gave the end of the spindle a couple of whacks while it was turning. The noise immediately changed and lessened by at least half, but didn't go away. So now I'm thinking it's something to do with end play or lack thereof.

So a teardown is indicated. I'm expecting I'll find broken wavy washers or something sort of stuck.

I don't think this noise is from the oil rings rattling.

metalmagpie

jim rozen · Jul 23, 2021

Marvel mystery oil is WAY too low a viscosity for this.

Just a Sparky · Jul 23, 2021

Emphasis on non-detergent oil for these bearings. Similar to air compressors, these bearings have tranquil low points designed into their sumps to allow particulate and dirt to settle out safely away from the bearing and shaft journal. Modern detergent motor-oils will keep this sort of particulate suspended in circulation, defeating this arrangement.

In 1913, Century Electric began development of fractional horsepower versions of their larger 'RS' and 'P' frame repulsion start motors. They saw fit to invent a system of lint-free yarn lubrication to filter the oil being fed to the bearings for these smaller motors. These came into being as their 'M' frame motors with a 1915 patent date. Two years of development to come up with a fiber lubrication system they were satisfied with is an indication to me that particulate and fiber control is a significant concern with these old bearings.

jim rozen · Jul 23, 2021

Hmm. I've been using ATF in the motor I use to start my rotary converter- does not have ring lube but does have yarn packed journal boxes.
ATF is high detergent, have not seen evidence of degradation in the bearings, but then it's a very low duty cycle application. I suspect in
bearings with those lube rings, detergent oil would indeed be best avoided.

ramsay1 · Jul 23, 2021

My 1943 Kearney and Trecker 2hl universal mill has a Westinghouse motor with similar bearings and oil rings.....When I got the machine, it was making a bumping noise in the bottom so I had to make a new bushing for the take off end of the motor... I think the belts had been run too tight for a long time causing wear... Fitted new bushing with about .001 running fit and lubed with Exxon nuto 68 as in the machine and it was as quiet as a mouse... Don't run the belt too tight and use a good machine oil probably about like 68 hydraulic oil and you should be fine. Too heavy of an oil may cause temp rise.. Cheers from Louisiana.. Ramsay 1

texasgeartrain · Jul 23, 2021

I had a similar problem for a similar type motor. It turned out to be two problems. First problem was end thrust, anything more than a couple thou's the shaft wanted to bang back and forth under power. The second problem was oil clearance on pulley side. Though not crazy excessive wear, the wear was excessive enough to cause rattle under power.

The solution was to make new bronze bearings for end caps. The new bearings controlled thrust and had better clearance to shaft. I want to say my final result was .002" end thrust, and .001" to .0015" on oil clearance to shaft.

To also get thrust under control I welded a thick washer to shaft and cut it true on a lathe. I had entirely too much time in it for a 1/2hp motor

, but I'm glad I did now.

Some pics:

A little more detail in posts #39, 40 and #41 in this thread:
Hammond Machinery Builders, Tool Grinder Model CB-77

please help with this old GE motor

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