Powerturn lathe, 1968 Lodge & shipley - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Talked to the folks at Monarch yesterday (they support L&S too) they say such a manual never existed for the Powerturn, just the parts manual and operators manual.

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    Here is the page from the operators manual that details adjusting the spindle bearings and clutch and brake..

    powerturn-instruction.jpg

  3. #63
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    Thanks,
    Glad that's included in the manual, I had forgotten. About 3 and 15 years ago after bringing lathes home I read the manuals front to back and have now forgotten much of it.. Time to read it all again instead of just skimming for info on the particular task at hand.

    I was trying to illustrate that the operators manual does not cover all the little details that a shop or repair manual might, if such a manual did exist. (I chose a bad example) Apparently such manual does not and likely never existed.

    This weekend I'll have more time to get into the quick change gearbox and asses the damage.

    Grigg

  4. #64
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    Removed the entire quick change gear box after removing some knobs/levers to remove the front cover casting then 4 bolts inside, 4 under, and loosen set screws on square clutch rod and slide it a foot or so out the right end of the lathe. The whole box is heavy, first wedged some blocks under it so it wouldn't just fall off then was able to slide it left, tip it out, and set it on the floor. Two people would have been better.

    img_3210.jpg

    You can see by the space in the gear stack that the shaft is bent, they should be clamped tight with the bearing retaining nut.
    With a straight edge on the bare shaft it has about 1/32" hump/bend in this location.

    img_3223.jpg

    The bearing bore near the bent end has wallowed out some, and cracked in the margin between nearest other bore. The crack probably isn't an issue.
    The bore is several thousandths oversize at best, tapered about 0.013" and about 0.006" out of round. If bored just enough to clean up and correct location a new cup shaped bushing could be easily made to fit and replace the original. (Bushing adapts small bearing to large hole, and allows room when removed to wiggle out the shaft complete with gears.)
    I can figure out how to bore the hole, but finding the correct location, setting up to that and checking it still has me thinking.. there are 3 shafts with meshing gears, so location of the one worn hole to the existing two is important. Might be able to measure this relationship on opposite end and duplicate. Possibly look up info on the gears and find pitch diameters to work out the shaft relationships as a double check?
    I can probably only setup to one end with machines available, otherwise a good method with enough spindle or machine travel is to sweep bores both ends of the gearbox and adjust square to that then through worn bore locate from the good one, back out and bore the worn one..
    There is no remaining undamaged portion of this bore to use for location.
    Any other ideas?

    img_3225.jpg

    Largest quick change gear (opposite end of shaft) partly sheared a 3/16" key at some point.
    Back in 1971 this gearbox got a new tumbler gear and cast iron carrier among other related parts. I'm now guessing that either the lathe was crashed or something jammed in the gears causing the damage requiring those new parts and partly shearing this key. At same time the severe torque caused the driven gears at opposite end of that shaft to spread bending the shaft? The bent shaft wasn't noticed or addressed then (assuming all this stuff broke at same time), if they had noticed and looked into the now bent shaft they probably would have replaced the key.
    In any case it's kind of a mess to fix now.

    img_3226.jpg

    These two gears aren't very good. The smaller has 6 bad/ugly teeth, and the larger gear 12 ugly teeth.
    To do it right they should both be replaced (and the shaft). I'm afraid the gears will be seriously expensive, I haven't asked yet.

    img_3227.jpg

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  6. #65
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    You could just make some new gears out of 4140PH. I've done that for my pacemaker and it works nicely.
    Thank you for posting the pictures and progress. Nice machine !

  7. #66
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    The shaft at 1" diameter and just less than 12" long had more than 0.050" runout spun between centers. I was able to get it bent back to maximum 0.0015" runout, mostly 0.0010" or better. Unsure if this is OK, should I think of a way to do better, have someone who knows better improve on it, or should I make a new shaft? A replacement shaft from Monarch Lathes (L&S) would run $1100 and change.

    Bending shaft in vice, shown at maximum squeeze then it relaxed back to pretty near straight.
    img_e3252.jpg

    img_e3253.jpg



    The gears might be something I can buy and adapt, they're around about $750 each otherwise, one in stock at Monarch and the other would be made to order in a few weeks.

    The larger gear with dog clutch on one face has a bronze bushing in it, but has remnants of a keyway in the gear bore, a clue that it started as an off the shelf gear?

    The smaller gear might could be made from a standard gear and a spacer, only a portion of the teeth are in mesh.

    I'll get gear measurements and look into those ideas soon.

    Any other ideas, or just buy the parts...?

    Already purchased new bearings for those that may have been overloaded by the interfering gear teeth.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grigg View Post
    I was able to get it bent back to maximum 0.0015" runout, mostly 0.0010" or better. Unsure if this is OK ...
    One anda half thou runout will give you about seven tenths variation in backlash as the gear rotates.

    You oughta be fine

  9. #68
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    I would suggest you explore what is available from Boston Gear or Martin Sprocket .
    Power Transmission, Material Handling & Hand Tool Manufacturer
    Depending on how you value your time and if you have suitable equipment available you might find something that with a little work you could adapt to your to meet your needs for considerably less money and not have to resort to buying cutters of custom made gears.
    If you post some dimensions of the gears you need maybe some one will have a suitable new old stock or good used gear available too.
    Regards,
    Jim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dscf1062.jpg   dscf1061.jpg  

  10. #69
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    Thanks for the suggestions.

    The gears are 10 diametral pitch 20° pressure angle.
    16 teeth and 32 teeth. Non hardened.

    img_3255.jpg

    The 32 tooth gear is overall 1.357" thick with a hub diameter of 2.083"
    This can be made from a Martin Gear part number TS1032 with plenty of extra material to machine and match the original gear. Browning and Boston don't list a 32 tooth 10DP gear. (had a Martin gear picked out on ebay but seller said it wasn't actually available)

    The 16 tooth gear is more difficult to find with enough material on it to duplicate the original.
    Overall length is 2.280"
    Hub diameter 1.438"
    Bore 1" with 3/16" keyway
    Boston, Martin, and Browning offer 16 tooth 20°PA 10DP gears as part numbers YF16, TS1016, and YSS1016 respectively.
    They're all 1.875" long with hub diameter 1.312". They list maximum bore as 3/4".
    My gear is longer by about 0.4" and 1/8" larger hub diameter. Assume I bore an available new gear to fit the 1" shaft and make a spacer to get correct length. Problem might be strength of the gear between corner of keyway and root of tooth, not much material left with that 1" bore (see picture). The full diameter portion of original gear with incomplete teeth and even the reduced diameter hub have plenty of meat outside the keyway, perhaps providing strength to overcome the weak spot at keyway and tooth portion of the gear.

    img_3257.jpg

    What I'd like to start with, if not the perfect gear, is a "stem pinion" with correct teeth, there would be plenty of length and diameter to find the original gear inside. So far I haven't found a 10DP stem pinion with 16 teeth.

    Anyone have feedback on having gears made to order from Boston or anyone else?

  11. #70
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    There was someone who posted on this forum a while ago that made gears for some other members that could perhaps make the pinion for you .
    I think his name was Mike but I can’t remember his forum name .
    He was from one of the states on the west coast of the U.S.A.
    I haven’t noticed him posting recently so I don’t know if he is still doing that or not.
    Maybe someone else will know .

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    That would be Finegrain, unfortunately he posted a while back that he had sold his horizontal mill and is no longer making gears. Selling off my involute gear cutter collection

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    robinr,
    Yes Finegrain wat the one I was thinking of
    Thanks for posting.
    Regards,
    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Christie View Post
    There was someone who posted on this forum a while ago that made gears for some other members ...
    Use Dan from Oakland. He knows his stuff. Zahnrad would be okay too but every time he posts, it's about "too busy ! too busy !" so I dunno

    10 DP 20 is simple. But on the 16T maybe check to see it's not long addendum. O.D. should be 1.8", if it's bigger than that could be a drop-tooth gear. No biggy but just be aware ...

    Hint : if you make the blanks and the gear shop only has to cut teeth, it goes way faster. Just make sure that the side it will fixture from is square to the bore and he bore is concentric with the o.d.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Moderow
    Good gears start with good blanks

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  17. #74
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    I have the Model X L&S, it's rated size is 14" yet I have a 16" chuck on it! I checked and have an 18" chuck that will also fit but can't open-up the jaws much more than the Diameter of the chuck.(was checking because I wanted the hole size in the center of the 18" chuck)did the job on my 24" (26" actual) Hendey So your lathe is a rated 13" but as most great USA made lathes the rated size is much smaller than the actual swing. Not like the newer lathes that a piece of paper will not fit past the listed size! If you need a transformer check out HGR in Ohio. If you keep watching they lower prices as time goes by. I picked-up quite a few transformers very cheap from them. They will ship however they usually know next to nothing about what they are selling, will refund money if the item is bad but shipping is not so anything heavy should be looked at before shipping!

  18. #75
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    Some progress on gears after deciding to have them made.
    Contacted a few folks about making them and I'd assume they all would do a fine job but I had to pick someone and get on with it. Now waiting on some 4140PH drops from one of the gear shops that replied.
    He also said "Good gears start with good blanks"

    I'll make the blank for the pinion.
    The larger gear with the dog clutch I'll machine the gear teeth off and shrink a new ring onto it, pin a few places with 10-32 set screws in the joint line, cleanup everything nice and true and then have new teeth cut.

    Might be a month or two before I'm reassembling.

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  20. #76
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    Finally sent off the gear blanks yesterday to have the teeth cut.

    The ring has 0.0015" interference fit. I wanted it real snug but was afraid of overdoing it and not being able to press it together, or it galling while pressing. Warmed the ring with a torch enough I could only just still handle it with bare hands, figured that would be safe temp for existing heat treat.
    It slid on the hub nicely with no need for the press tools I had made up and ready, but glad I had them ready.. Used green loctite retaining compound too. In hindsight probably could have gotten away with 0.0025" or 0.0030" interference fit on the 2.375" diameter.

    img_3299.jpg

    Then drilled and tapped 10-32 four places in the joint. Squared the ends of eight screws and put them in from both sides so they'd tighten against each other, less likely to fall out I thought, and well coated with red loctite. Trimmed the screws just proud and squished them in the vice to expand at least the outer ends before skimming the sides and OD to clean up and run true to the bore.

    img_3304.jpg

    Made some layout marks and measurements ahead of time and was able to setup and drill the oil hole in the ring perfectly intersecting the original in the hub.
    Broached the keyway in the smaller gear.
    Keyway in large gear is unnecessary, perhaps started as a stock gear, bronze bushing now fits in that bore

    img_3308.jpg

    As usual progress is slow, but it is progress.

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  22. #77
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    Had a chance to work on your Powerturn lately, Grigg?

  23. #78
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    Guess it's been a while again..
    The gears came back and look perfect, very nicely cut and finished.
    I removed more parts and got some of the machine back together.
    Still haven't assembled the quick change gear box though I have all the new bearings and repaired pieces for it.

    Been busy with other things lately.

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