Purox W-200 Aircraft torch age

I am getting set up to weld antique automobile aluminum body panels, with the same tool that was used in the past. I have located and purchased a nice Purox W-200 handle, #3 welding tip, cutting attachment, and a cute little Rosebud. You tube has several nice presentations about the gas welding method used by old timers to weld sheet aluminum, and that is good. The ending weld appears to be much stronger that a comparable TIG or MIG weld. However, flux is a very important ingredient that needs to be thoroughly cleaned to stop future corrosion. Does anyone here have experience gas welding aluminum? Does anyone know what year Purox came out with the W-200 design? When did Purox drop the design or be bought out? If anyone can offer some life experience on the subject of gas welding aluminum, please speak up. I will be practicing over the next few weeks getting the skill set built up to complete the needed welds without skill related issues.
Al

Have you looked for Purox online and see if that info is available. If they are still in business they might still have the specs. Maybe some other company bought them out.

alsfarms said:

I will be practicing over the next few weeks getting the skill set built up to complete the needed welds without skill related issues.
Al

Click to expand...

Might want to budget more than a few weeks. I took the gas welding aluminum class from The Tinman in northern California several years ago. After a few days I could gas weld two sheets together, maybe they were 0.062 thick butt welded. The weld was about 10 inches long and looked pretty bad, but after some practice no blow holes etc. Maybe you are more skilled I don't know, but it was difficult. The aluminum doesn't get hot, glow, and then soften like steel does. It just gets hot, then hotter, then falls apart. You can't see it get hot. Tinman has a pretty good video on it, I recommend it. I remember in the class he pointed out that during WWII women were taught to gas weld airplanes together, which they did by the thousands. So what's my excuse? Practice, practice, more practice.

Book: "Aircraft Welding"

ALSFarms:

This book may be of interest to you:

Aircraft Welding

Never read it myself......looked interesting, though. Maybe someone could comment on this book.

Understanding the theory followed by lots of practice is probably the key to this art.

JRR

Most of the gas welding of airplanes was steel, not aluminum. Aluminum welding was really only used on non-structural complex shapes like wing or control surface fairings and wing fillets. All high strength parts were what we now call 2024 alloy (was called 24S at the time, if I remember right) and is not considered weldable. All major structures, skins and such out of aluminum were riveted. Only soft pure aluminum parts can be torch welded, so that limits it to the above.

What adh2000 says, though.... You may be naturally extremely talented, but otherwise you have a lot of learning to do when it comes to torch welding, unless you are already a very experienced torch welder on other materials. Torch welding itself is a hard earned skill. Torch welding thin materials is harder. Torch welding aluminum sheet well is one of the hardest skills you will learn. Not trying to discourage you, quite the opposite... don't throw in the towel when you aren't getting perfect results in four weeks. It may take years to get good at it. Just like playing piano, it is solid practice that will get you there. No amount of reading, studying, watching videos, etc... is going to take the place of thousands of hours of practice.

I started self taught with the Linde Oxy-Acetylene handbook and a torch my dad bought when I was 13yrs old. I monkeyed with torches (mainly cutting) for a few years in industrial construction, then many years later went to work at an airplane museum in the restoration dept. I had a few old aircraft welders (one of which was a Linde welding engineer) teaching me. Still took several years to get to the point I could make welds I was really comfortable with. I have played with O/A aluminum welding, but I am not at all proficient at it. I can give it hell with a TIG machine, but it's still REALLY hard to get right with a torch.

In addition to the aluminum welding flux, you also need different goggles to weld aluminum versus other materials. The flux puts off a brilliant orange sodium flare that will keep you from properly seeing the weld. If you can't see perfectly, the metal just falls out on you.

I used to go to Oshkosh every year and hang out in all the technical seminars (part of my job, believe it or not!), including Tinman's (Kent White). He had a pair of standard welding goggles and his version side by side for the unbelievers (as I was at first). One look through both goggles and it is very plain. You can easily see the puddle start to form on the surface with his goggles. It is not a big glowing puddle like steel, but just a silvery looking change in the surface. Go past that and it's a hole. With the standard goggles, it was pretty much just a hole before anything obvious happened.

On edit... forgot to add, DON'T start learning on your car body panels!!! Once you have blown holes in it and ruined the metal, your panels are shot and useless. Get some junk bits to practice on and save the body work for when you are extremely confident in your ability (quite a while from right now). A torch weld is not really any stronger than a TIG weld, but you simply can't usually find a reasonably priced MIG that can weld aluminum that thin. The torch weld will be wider than the TIG (unless you can get your hands on a real good machine like a Dynasty with full wave and frequency variability) and likely softer, so you can planish it out and work it without it cracking as quickly. A bad torch weld will, of course be inferior to a good TIG weld, no matter what, and vice versa.

Hello Mike, You offer some good advice, from your mechanical experience. I am thinking of investing in the TM gas welding lens as a means to be able to see what is going on with the gas weld on aluminum procedure. I spent several years open root welding boiler tubes....and if you can't see and watch what you need to control......a certified weld will not happen! Your thought on practice is right on also. Our new welders would probably spend the better part of two years before they were even considered for testing as one of our Journey level welders. I am actually excited learn this aluminum welding process. It sure looks like heat and dip, heat and dip. Also, I have a good set of body panels, needing some repair and fitting. I also have a set of the same panels that are torn up that will serve as my practice pieces. Does anyone have a chart of the Purox W-200 welding tips and what thickness they are best suited to weld? I know a chart like that exists but have not seen one.
Alan

Hi Alan -
The chart you want was posted on Stoody Industrial's (Victorville,CA) website , only I'm not sure if they're still there .
You can still find them on Google , but the page doesn't load .

I believe you can still get a repair kit for the cutting head (CW-300) , but you'll be hard pressed to find welding tips for the torch - E-bay might be your best bet here .

I was looking for other tips for mine , and wondered if the tips for this Ameriflame handle might work , or at least be adaptable - Pretty cheap , so maybe worth a try , as "aircraft" size torches themselves are pretty scarce these days :

Amazon.com: Ameriflame MD71TH 6-Inch Light Duty Welding Handle for General Purpose Heating, Brazing, Welding and Other Flame Processes: Home Improvement

Same torch is made/sold by Uniweld , I believe .

Good luck,
Tom

My Purox 200 is about 40 years old, I bought it new. I have gas welded lots of aluminum but it has been years. I was making fuel and oil tanks for old Porsche race cars, like 904, 906, 908. I have a pair of cobalt blue lenses that I used to use when gas welding aluminum. You better allow more than a few weeks to learn how to do it. it is for sure the hardest type of welding I have ever done.

I started out learning oxyacetylene welding of steel, mainly to get the idea of how the welding process happened. I picked up a few really old O/A welder's manuals, and the mention of welding aluminum caused me to remember: the old O/A welding texts said to weld aluminum, the welder should wear BLUE filter lenses in his goggles. Apparently, the normal dark-green filter lenses worn for cutting or welding of steel do not give proper visability for watching the puddle when welding aluminum.

As for aircraft torches, my guess is many were manufactured for the defense industries during WWII. Into the 1950's a lot of light, fine welding was done with oxyacetylene, not just for aircraft frames. I have a heavy Victor oxyacetylene outfit, but I also have a Victor J-27 aircraft torch. This came from a dental lab when they were cleaning house. I have a few tips for it. I have since learned that Victor discontinued the J-27 aircraft torch, but tips are available at a very steep price. I believe Smith's still makes an aircraft torch and tips. Smith's was always "THE" torch and regulators to have, a step up from Victor according to older welders and fitters. I have been using my own Victor cutting outfit for over 40 years, no complaints, and use the little J-27 torch occasionally for very fine work. The Victor J 27 was a very popular aircraft torch "back in the day". I've been around welding and related work for over 40 years in industry as an engineer and welding inspector. I can say with some certainty that Purox never enjoyed the popularity of Victor torches. Seemed like if a fab shop or contractor had an oxyacetylene outfit, it was most often Victor. Smith's was always a bit pricier, so less likely to turn up on a jobsite. It was more of a fab shop torch, less likely to get abused or grow legs. I've used Smith's torches on a few jobs, and can say they are a very finely made piece of work. Nice heft to them and the best fit and finish of any torches I have ever seen. If you can find a Smith's aircraft torch with a set of tips as a complete package, you'd probably be money ahead of trying to piece together a Purox set. And, Smith's will support their torches with parts.



For what tips cost for an older aircraft torch, you might do well to hunt down a torch with a full assortment of welding tips on ebay.

TM's lenses replace the old blue lenses. Apparently, the blue lenses let you see well, but didn't do much for blocking infra red... old aluminum welders got cataracts form the blue lenses. TMs are green, but have a different spectrum filter than ordinary green goggles. They let you see, but still prevent eye damage.

AL welding is not heat and dip. Get it hot enough to go for the dip and your rod will go right through the work. You kind of lay the wire in the path and flow the puddle into it. One of those things like riding a bicycle... I can explain exactly how to do it, but it's going to be useless until you do it yourself.

Good that you already have welding experience, that will certainly help. Don't know how much gas welding you have done with steel, but that's a real good training tool for learning how to control the heat with flame direction and distance from the work. If you haven't done much, get some scrap and coat hanger wire. I know it sounds redneck, but coat hanger wire is excellent welding wire and it's free. Anything thin is god to practice on. You will also need to learn about the different tips. Basically, if the torch is popping on you, the tip is too big. Go down a size to increase flow rate through the torch. Open the fuel valve on teh torch wide open and then bring the regulator up enough to light off the torch. Keep turning it up until the smoke goes away. Same deal for O2.... open torch valve and turn the O2 reg until you get a neutral flame. Easiest way to set the flame right. You can make minor adjustments on the torch, but for any real variance in heat input, you have to swap tips. Once you can weld pallet strapping together without making a mess of it, you are ready to start messing with aluminum.

Hello All, Thanks for the comments. I watched a fellow do some aluminum welding, his method actually was rather heat and dip or drop. Of course he could see the puddle and was keeping up with the glassy state just before it fell through. I actually like to do gas welding on steel. That is how I have installed auto repair patches before MIG got popular. I have heard that Smiths is a fine torch also. I have also heard some folks claim the Meco is the best. Its probably like liking a Ford over a Chev, just what you like or raised with and thats it. I have also been told to get a pistol grip torch....I guess I am old school, I will stay with a light weight conventional.
Al

OK, if you are an old school gas welder, this may go pretty well for you. Get a lot of folks that think they can buy a torch and start welding. If you can weld sheet steel with a torch, you'll catch on. Never know what the skill level is of a new poster.

Does anyone know if other sources exist for a lens similar to the TM 2000 lens that is an excellent item for use to weld aluminum?
Alan

I can't help you with Aluminum welding, but I have a W-200 as well, and I use it for automotive bodywork (hammer welding patches, lead filling) as well as brazing bicycle parts. It's almost too small for those tasks - most of the time I use the largest tip (#5 I think).

I bought new tips within the last three or four years online, but I can not find the reciept so I don't remember the supplier. Purox was bought out by Linde/ESAB and the new parts are labeled ESAB. I do remember it was really difficult to figure out how to order them, basically I had to find a PDF of the original instruction manual and get the old part number of the tips, then use this to find the new ESAB part number and order them. And the tip descriptions in the ESAB catalog do not include the torch handle that they fit.

Hello Deskmechanic,
Do you have any of the smaller tips for your W-200 that you don't use and may consider selling. I do not, as yet, know what tip I should use on aluminum thin ga. body panels. I will probably know shortly what works and what doesn't work so good. The tip I have is a Purox #4. I am still curious about what year Purox developed the W-200 torch set-up.
Al

ESAB NA (North America) website has this .pdf file:

http://edgewh.esabna.com/literature...Manuals/ARM_Sec-E_Welding-Heating_Torches.pdf

This has an exploded view of W-200 torch with part numbers at Page 15 of the .pdf, marked Section E2 RM Item 200.

At page 27 of the PDF, there's a table entitled Section E3 RM Item 200, which gives a complete table of part numbers of torch tips. This table has an effective date of 1983.

Having the part numbers should be a great assistance in finding the pieces on the internet. One never knows what "New, Old Stock" might be gathering dust on a supplier's shelves.

John Ruth

SouthBendModel34 said:

ESAB NA (North America) website has this .pdf file:

http://edgewh.esabna.com/literature...Manuals/ARM_Sec-E_Welding-Heating_Torches.pdf

This has an exploded view of W-200 torch with part numbers at Page 15 of the .pdf, marked Section E2 RM Item 200.

At page 27 of the PDF, there's a table entitled Section E3 RM Item 200, which gives a complete table of part numbers of torch tips. This table has an effective date of 1983.

Having the part numbers should be a great assistance in finding the pieces on the internet. One never knows what "New, Old Stock" might be gathering dust on a supplier's shelves.

John Ruth

Click to expand...

I am pretty sure those tips are still being made. Here is one link (further down the page):

https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF::::PG8

The only optional lenses are blue and I have never tried them. Kent's stuff is expensive, but there is no question about whether it works. As for tip size, you will find yourself using the same size tip as for the same thickness of steel, if not one larger. Aluminum conducts heat away so fast that it usually takes even more heat than steel. See if you can find some aluminum roofing flashing to play with. Should be pure aluminum and very thin. You can also try 6061 alloy if you find it. It torch welds pretty good, but you lose all the alloy and heat treat strength in the weld (it's cast pure aluminum, not 6061 T-6 or whatever alloy and condition). 2024 and 7075 are no good at all, considered unweldable.

I have just received my first Purox welding tip. It must be a "Plumbers" tip as it is ported to allow air to be pulled into the tip tube. I assume it was for a nice soft fire, good for plumbing. Not at all what I need to control the flame for gas welding Aluminum. Does anyone want to trade tips?
Alan

In addition to the traditional aircraft torches that were successfully used for decades to weld aluminum and steel tubing there is another newcomer to the torch block known by a number of different names (because the company got sold multiple times I think). But among the names are "Dillon 2000" and "Henrob 2000". You will find several youtube videos by searching those words.

According to the PEOPLE WHO SELL THE TORCH it is the bomb for delicate aluminum welding. I happen to own one but have never used it to weld aluminum or anything else for that matter. Notwithstanding that I've never used it, I'm still happy to have bought it. However, I remain mildly skeptical about the manufacturer's claims that it is in a class by itself; that it makes TIG torches obsolete; yada yada... Maybe using it will make a believer out of me. But I'm not one yet. Still, it's worthwhile for you to know that it's out there. Although I'm not sure it's the best torch for welding aluminum I'm convinced it's definitely not the worst.

But it is an odd duck as torches go.

VT