Restored Hendey and Pratt & Whitney for sale
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  1. #1
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    Default Restored Hendey and Pratt & Whitney for sale

    These restored lathes have been on ebay for a while. I was wondering why nobody wants to buy them. I already have a 50's Monarch lathe but these look so nice I'm tempted.

    s-l1600.jpg

    s-l1601.jpg

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/jac-glov/m....p2047675.l2562

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    The price...You can buy Monarchs, American pacemakers for the same money if you shop around. And the top speed is low..Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nice Guy View Post
    ...these look so nice I'm tempted.
    "Tempted" to run a "Classic" 1930's automobile as well. But... "sanity check" sez the advances in tires, brakes, suspension, side-impact barriers, air bags - even windshield wipers - is what keeps a person ALIVE present-day traffic and careless others sharing the road. Or failing to do.

    I LIKE HSS for example. But... my slowest spindle is 2500 RPM.. or better.
    So I CAN use carbides to decent effect.

    Neither of these old warhorses is likely to have much over half that RPM.

    The "worth" to the PO had to have been more in the pleasure of doing a nice restore than in using them afterwards.

    Hard to get some other Pilgrim to PAY you for getting YOUR rocks off. Not his!


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    Thanks for the input.
    I don't have the aptitude to restore one of these but I appreciate that someone has. The lathe I have is nice but not so much so that I would be afraid to use it. These two look like they belong in a museum. I have the Bridgeport mill that the company restored with new old stock and put in their lobby before they went under, S/N 7. Don't plan on using it. I just think these old machines are cool, industrial sculpture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nice Guy View Post
    Thanks for the input.
    I don't have the aptitude to restore one of these but I appreciate that someone has. The lathe I have is nice but not so much so that I would be afraid to use it. These two look like they belong in a museum. I have the Bridgeport mill that the company restored with new old stock and put in their lobby before they went under, S/N 7. Don't plan on using it. I just think these old machines are cool, industrial sculpture.
    They are not in any way "useless". They just aren't FAST enough to compete as revenue-earners in a world so much further along than in their era.

    The value of TIME for skilled labour is so large it make more economic sense to discard and replace with a volume-produced item rather than repair at greater cost than brand-new.

    I ceased refinishing brake rotors, or buying "rebuilts", years ago, for example. Brand-new had gone cheaper, BETTER, and faster to source off the back of whole machine-halls full of CNC critters cranking them out so rapidly.

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    In a hobby environment speed is not very important, so that would not put me off. What does put me off is the word restored. To me, this is a big red flag. What does "RESTORED" mean? A coat of paint? Cleaning? Perhaps a complete overhaul to factory specs? Without a thorough inspection with test bars and indicators, I would avoid these like the plague.

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    I second steve-l.
    I see a decent paint job and a no so decent flaking job done where it shouldn't be. Personally, I don't give much importance to the paint, unless the machine has to be a show piece in a museum. The advertised price is highly suspicious: a fraction of the actual cost of tearing down, grinding, and bringing it back to specs, and way too much for just a decent paint job.

    Paolo

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    The 18 speed P&W is not quite twice as fast as the 12 speed Hendey - which is quite the slow poke

    Both possess formal lead screw reverse on apron - the Pratt doing the Hendey one better with the use of automotive style synchronizers for greater usefulness at elevated speeds

    Neither are hard way machines - and could very well both be older than my 80 years

    Plus one on this

    way too much for just a decent paint job

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    The ways do look decent in the photo's, but show some wear making me think they might be original and not flaked for show. He did a fantastic job doing cleaning and cosmetics, unfortunately that's not where the value is. If he maybe posted some pics of tests or something to show that the beauty isn't skin deep, they might sell.

    They're a lot like old cars. Everyone loves them and wants a nice one but nobody wants to buy one that's already done for what the previous owner put into it. I'm working on a stock 54' Chevy sedan that I could easily have $60,000 into when it's done, but I'll NEVER get that out of it If I sold it. I'm a big details guy so it'll be nice, but it'll still be a 2100 4-door with the OEM chassis, so I'd be super lucky to get $10,000.

    The way the classic cars and classic machine tools survive is not by restoring and selling them, but by having bleeding heart enthusiasts out there that will put in the work to keep them going knowing the market will never be in their favor.

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    Thanks for taking a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    ..stock 54' Chevy sedan that I could easily have $60,000 into when it's done, but I'll NEVER get that out of it If I sold it. I'm a big details guy so it'll be nice, but it'll still be a 2100 4-door with the OEM chassis, so I'd be super lucky to get $10,000.
    Perspective. A neighbor, Civil Engineer mostly involved in surveying rights-of-way for the Pennsy Railroad, ergo honest "middle class" of the era, took delivery of a brand-new metallic green 1955 Chevy two-door, inline six, not 265 V8.

    Braggin' proud he'd "gotten a good deal".... at all of 980 US dollars.

    Car values, new or not-so-much, aren't what has moved upward.

    Purchasing power of the Dollar, and downward, rather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Perspective. A neighbor, Civil Engineer mostly involved in surveying rights-of-way for the Pennsy Railroad, ergo honest "middle class" of the era, took delivery of a brand-new metallic green 1955 Chevy two-door, inline six, not 265 V8.

    Braggin' proud he'd "gotten a good deal".... at all of 980 US dollars.

    Car values, new or not-so-much, aren't what has moved upward.

    Purchasing power of the Dollar, and downward, rather.
    Might be a little off on the memory cells on the Chevy price: "Two-Ten models: started at $1775 for a 2 door and $2127.00 for a Townsman wagon. One-Fifty models: started at $1593.00 for a utility wagon up to $2030.00 for a Handyman wagon."

    Source: 1955 Chevrolet Body Styles - 1955 Classic Chevrolet

    Dan

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    The lathes that are the subject of this thread remind of the days of the used machine tool dealers (aka pirates) down in NY City. Those guys would buy used machine tools for low-ball prices at bankruptcy auctions or from shops needing to vacate due to losing their lease, or similar reasons. The machine tools dealers had a number of "mechanics" in their employ whose job was to make the used/worn machine tools look like they either had seen little use, or were freshly "rebuilt". The "mechanics" would take the machine tools apart as far as was needed to clean them up for a repaint job. This was often done by washing parts in gasoline out along the curb of the sidewalk, dumping the dirty gasoline down the nearest storm drain. Any cast surfaces were then repainted using automotive body filler where needed, and a high gloss enamel. Any bare metal surfaces such as handwheels, levers, etc, were polished using wire wheels and fine emery cloth and maybe a canvas wheel with buffing compound.

    The real "rebuild" came with the "rescraping" of any previously scraped surfaces. These surfaces were polished off with emery cloth and then flake-scraped. In those days, the machine tool dealers did not have the power scrapers. Instead, they had mainly Eastern European immigrants who would hand flake scrape anything the boss told them to. They'd lay a nice uniform "fish scale" or "half moon" flake scraping on surfaces which were never checked for flatness, parallel, or anything else.

    Any lettering on the machine tool castings was highlighted with a contrasting color enamel.

    When these guys got done, the machine tools were moved into the showroom, packed in tight as sardines in a can. A coating of oil was applied to the "rebuilt" machine tools and under the ceiling lights, they shone and sparkled.

    If you were interested in a machine tool, it was a case of "caveat emptor", or buyer beware. The dealer might represent the machine as "having been gone through" by his mechanics, or make some other claims (machine tool saw little use, was a toolroom machine, etc). At that point, the dealers were fine with a prospective buyer checking over the machine tool, and would usually bring out a lead cord with heavy alligator clips to power it up for the prospective buyer.

    Tales of heavily worn lathes (which were known as "swaybacks", as the bedway wear was similar to an old, hard used horse's back), and tales of having the bores in the heads of mills and drills "restored" by raising burrs with a punch so the quills would fit snugly were well known. The dealers knew it was unlikely that a prospective buyer was going to show up with a test bar, camelback straightedges and similar to check a used lathe. The dealers asked a fairly high price to start with, and the bargaining and banter was part of the game. I think some of those dealers would go into cardiac arrest if a customer did NOT start off bargaining and trading a few friendly insults.

    Some dealers were scrupulously honest, and often simply displayed machine tools in "as removed" condition with little cleanup and no new paint. We tended to trust those guys and the machine tools they sold a lot more than the "freshly rebuilt" or "I had my guys go through this machine, it had low use, and it's like new.." types.These latter type of dealers were on the same page as some used car salesmen. These latter types were probably horse traders in the old country, and it was common during the bargaining process to throw this belief at the dealer.

    The buyers had their own ways of inspecting used machine tools and a few simply checks would usually tell enough of the tale to give a more realistic picture of the true condition. This resulted in some serious bargaining, if the buyer did not walk away from the "deal". Usually, the deals were closed with a handshake, and the dealer would pull a bottle of whisky out of a battered file cabinet and find two glasses. A belt of whisky and wishing each other well also sealed the deal. The next step was to go out in the street and be pounced upon by the riggers and machinery movers who were circling, having a sixth sense for when a deal would be closed on the sale of a machine tool.

    It's all bygone days, and I remember it quite well. Older machinists and shop owners knew who the honest dealers were and who the real pirates and horse traders were.
    I learned the tales of the used machine tool dealers from the older machinists and shop owners, as well as from the late Dave Sobel. With todays ebay, we are seeing a similar sort of thing. Add a distance factor where a bidder may buy a used machine tool without ever personally inspecting or checking it over, and we can only imagine what kind of situations can result. Again, "caveat emptor"- let the buyer beware- should be the rule of the day.

    Plainly, the old adage that "all that shines is not gold", or "if it looks too good to be true.. it probably is too good to be true" pertained with those used machine tool dealers of years ago. My own suspicions are this same line of thinking pertains to the two lathes listed on ebay. The odds of finding two lathes as old as the Hendey and the P & W in that good a condition are not too likely. A thorough cleaning and a coat of enamel and some superficial flake scraping may be what is really the case here. I like the old classic engine lathes, but then, I am not in business as a machine shop. I "came up" learning on and using these older engine lathes, and "came up" using HSS tooling. For a maintenance machine shop or similar, these older engine lathes are still good machine tools. However, at 7 grand, they are priced at several times what a realistic price would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLinsch View Post
    Might be a little off on the memory cells on the Chevy price: "Two-Ten models: started at $1775 for a 2 door and $2127.00 for a Townsman wagon. One-Fifty models: started at $1593.00 for a utility wagon up to $2030.00 for a Handyman wagon."

    Source: 1955 Chevrolet Body Styles - 1955 Classic Chevrolet

    Dan
    "LIST prices?" "I can get it for yah wholesale!"

    One old Jewish merchant to another:

    "So if we are God's chosen people", why did he make so many Gentiles?"

    "SOMEBODY has to pay "retail!"



    ISTR 5 out of 7 new cars I bought were "dealer-demo". Every one of them had something vexing hard to find wrong with them - from the factory - that the dealer hadn't been able to pin-down, but I did. Not always right away, sadly.

    The two that were NOT "dealer demo"? Near ZERO miles on the Odometer?

    They were far the WORST of the lot!

    New first-year-of-production Dodge Aspen? Annoying "clunk? One end of the front anti-sway bar had missed being gifted with an attachment bolt! Not just the nut. Nothing THERE!

    Ford AWD SUV hatchback? Funny bumps in the hatchback paint? They had run out of short screws to attach the fiberboard inner liner and used LONG screws!

    Needless to say, all that petty s**t turned out to be only the OBVIOUS stuff before we got TF RID of them!

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    You got to write that book, Joe - you are the best tale teller I can think of - and the ONLY one with the knowledge and appreciation of this subject.

    Your ability to craft the "prose" in such a readable form seals the bargain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Michaels View Post
    The dealer might represent the machine as "having been gone through" by his mechanics, or make some other claims (machine tool saw little use,
    "I was just a BYSTANDER". when one of the big kids was trying to cut a deal with an obviously heavily-used "night lady".

    "C'mon, next thing you know, you are going to tell me you still have your cherry!"

    "But I DO still have it, sweetheart."

    "It has just been pushed so far back I use it as brake lights!"


    So it is with some Old Iron...


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    With todays ebay, we are seeing a similar sort of thing.
    -Yep!

    I can't count the umber of times I've been looking (mostly idly) at machines, and spotted a nice-looking, say, HLV-H or well-outfitted DV59, where the thumbnail makes it look glossy and clean.

    Check the actual photos, and yeah, the paint is smooth and fresh... and the lettering is worn off the control panel, the collet guard is worn white, and one of the phenolic knobs is broken- and the broken edges are worn smooth again.

    There is, however, a difference between a private owner rebuilding a machine, and a machine-flipper doing it. It's possible the OP's machines are little more than a "wrap and squirt" paintjob, or they may have been meticulously rebuilt with an eye towards "factory new" specs.

    But in their case, only an in-person examination could say.

    I do agree with the others, though- machines that large, but that slow, will have limited interest even professionally rebuilt and at fire-sale prices.

    Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    You got to write that book, Joe - you are the best tale teller I can think of - and the ONLY one with the knowledge and appreciation of this subject.

    Your ability to craft the "prose" in such a readable form seals the bargain
    I Second the notion......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodge View Post
    I Second the notion......
    That makes 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCPDesigns View Post
    That makes 3
    I'd go for fourth, save that at my age, I might get so deep into the READING of it to starve off the back of forgetting to stop and eat!

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