What's new
What's new

Restoring antique machinery tools: a chicken and egg problem

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
Shortly after i brought my first old machine home, i was researching some restoration topic on this board and an experienced member pointed out that to return to service an antique machine, you often need a lathe and a mill to fabricate the parts and fixtures required for the restoration. I thought to myself;

"My machine is complete and only requires a thorough cleaning and lubrication. Not me, i can do it without heeding that sage advice.

I neglected to consider the need to fabricate some means of suspending the countershaft, fabricate the bushings and step pulleys and, some mechanism for aligning the belts and adjusting tension and....blah, blah, blah.


So here I am 18 months later with a functional H-mill, a shaper and am about 36 hours away from buying another antique (but functional) lathe so i can get the hendey into service.

I've noticed quite a few new members of the board who, like me, brought their first antique home with an intent to restore it. I would like to reiterate that advice buried deep in that post that i can't remember. Don't underestimate the need for access to functional machine tools to accomplish your restoration. And by the way, it's a great excuse to buy more cool old stuff.
 
Shortly after i brought my first old machine home, i was researching some restoration topic on this board and an experienced member pointed out that to return to service an antique machine, you often need a lathe and a mill to fabricate the parts and fixtures required for the restoration. I thought to myself;

"My machine is complete and only requires a thorough cleaning and lubrication. Not me, i can do it without heeding that sage advice.

I neglected to consider the need to fabricate some means of suspending the countershaft, fabricate the bushings and step pulleys and, some mechanism for aligning the belts and adjusting tension and....blah, blah, blah.


So here I am 18 months later with a functional H-mill, a shaper and am about 36 hours away from buying another antique (but functional) lathe so i can get the hendey into service.

I've noticed quite a few new members of the board who, like me, brought their first antique home with an intent to restore it. I would like to reiterate that advice buried deep in that post that i can't remember. Don't underestimate the need for access to functional machine tools to accomplish your restoration. And by the way, it's a great excuse to buy more cool old stuff.

.
you got a choice
.
spend time running a functional machine making stuff OR spend all your time getting non functional machine working again.
.
like buying a old car. you want a car to drive or a car to fix up cause thats what you want to spend your time on
 
True there is a choice.

Newer is usually functional and old requires some skill and time. If you choose well or are lucky/live in the right area sometimes just a little skill/time is required. For me the big advantages of old are way less money and a much more capable machine all things being equal. You also end up with a really cool machine and invariably you learn a lot and appreciate the many highly skilled people that made it. You are touching history.

If I needed something done by tomorrow I would not buy old but since I often have a choice ...

Dave
 
In a word, "bootstrapping".

I feel absolutely certain that I could create a functional overhead drive with hand saws and drills if need be. It would not be a fully versatile and final one, but stuff would be spinning.

Once you have the spindle going around and around at a fairly workable speed, then you have the ability to get fancier, and create whatever system you want to.

Don't let little stuff stop you.

I assume this is for a personal shop. No commercial enterprise would tolerate that sort of delay, and the machinery would be bought in ready-to-run condition, so money starts coming in.
 
cannot talk about hobby machines. but many people have small table top machines that can do alot if not in a hurry. there is a American company that sells many accessories as well as parts of their machines and sells cnc versions and or upgrade kits.
.
yes they are not industrial machines but machines that dont take much space and you can pickup and put on a shelf out of the way when not needed
 
I neglected to consider the need to fabricate some means of suspending the countershaft, fabricate the bushings and step pulleys and, some mechanism for aligning the belts and adjusting tension and....blah, blah, blah.

That is all off the shelf stuff......could be done in a day..........unless you want to get fancy. If you need flat cone pulleys, make them out of wood and they could even be "turned to size and shape" where they are to be mounted, bit awkward, but do-able, mount a tool rest close to the rough blank and cut away
 
advantages of old are way less money and a much more capable machine all things being equal.
Less money, yes, if your time has little or no value, much more capable machine? New machines have many advances, higher speeds for carbide use, stiffer beds for the same, and mostly, larger spindle holes. I guess some folks don't see any advantage to larger spindle holes but for me it's a deciding factor. Up until the 1980's American machine tool companies in general put out lathes with smaller spindle holes, the Taiwanese figured out that it's a huge plus for some of us and that's one reason they outsold the world for a while there, and maybe still do.
Other advantages of new machinery is available documentation, like manuals, accuracy reports and parts manuals. Obviously in addition parts availability is a great factor.
Resale value of an antique lathe can be very good, if it's one of the really desirable ones, but again the labor time for restoration has to be figured for honesty's sake.
Everyone has their own reasons for what they do, for me if I like an old machine it's worth spending the time to restore it, but only for whatever reason I think it's neat to have an old machine, a shaper is a good example, many think they are worthless, yet I find uses for one that no other machine can equal.

I meet people all the time who tell me big old flat belt lathes are so cool, I wonder what the heck they are thinking. A pile of gears as a brain teaser for every different thread? The sound of the belt slapping? Slow speeds in bronze or even Babbitt bearings are appealing? Yes, for those who love the history of machine tools.

People walk into the entry to my shop and see two 100 year old gear swap lathes with oil reservoirs on the bearing caps and say how cool they are, but if they had to pay for the extra time it takes to make good parts on them they may not think they are so cool. The lathes are for display.
 
Well, flat belts and change gears don't HAVE to go together........ Not since maybe 1892 when Hendey put a QC box on lathes for sale. That's what, 126 years ago now. News travels slowly!

I won't argue about flat belts, V belts sure work well.
 
I'm just sharing a bit of an observation here. I am the type of person who revels in the journey rather than the destination. At the end of the day, if productivity were my goal, i'd invest in CAD software, learn how to use it and send out the files to a CNC shop and have them push the buttons. My goals are quite different. I revel in the process of restoring stuff and simply underestimated the infrastructure required and wanted to share this experience.
 
In all honesty, if I could I would buy the very best machinery I could and yes much of it would be new. Likely no debate there for most of use on this forum, we would if we could. To argue that most new machines aren't better than old is just plain stupid unless you consider that for many on this forum they don't have deep pockets and buy what they can afford at the time. Even with this limitation a lot of people here are skilled enough to produce good parts on old machines. By a "much more capable machine all things being equal" I was meaning in relation to some of the imports at that price point. Usually you end up with a much more rigid/precise machine that has greater capacity and will last much longer.

You realize of course that somewhere, someone who has seen your shop is thinking that you need to upgrade your machines since most are at least a few years old and old is no good. It is all relative to the resources you have (money, space, time) and need (type of job).

Dave
 
I don't understand this thread....yes, if you want to fix up an old machine, you will probably end up buying other machines...so what's the "problem"?
 
I'm just sharing a bit of an observation here. I am the type of person who revels in the journey rather than the destination. At the end of the day, if productivity were my goal, i'd invest in CAD software, learn how to use it and send out the files to a CNC shop and have them push the buttons. My goals are quite different. I revel in the process of restoring stuff and simply underestimated the infrastructure required and wanted to share this experience.



Dude... seriously....... rig up a one speed drive and get to work..... It;s not that hard, and you will be using the machine, not complaining. The machine can them make its own drive components etc, and then you can set up the drive you rally want, without spending money and searching the internet for parts.

And you could by now have had the machine running. I would, I have no fear of cobbled up improvised stuff, if it allows me to get things done, even if not the way that I would ideally like to have it happen. use 2 x 4s and pillow blocks if you need to.

You are not trying to make money with it. get it running, and make the parts you need, so that you can set up what you want.
 
1) buy old machine tools.

2) get old machine tools functional.

3) realize that the functional tools can be applied to other machine tools.

4) buy more old machine tools.

repeat endlessly.

Options:

a) buy old motorcycles.

b) fix old motorcycles with old machine tools.

c) ride old motorcycles to places where you can purchase more

d) old motorcycles and old machine tools.

Again, repeat endlessly.
 
There are good points in all of these posts. These old flat belt machines hold a special place for lots of us but like JST said. Get it spinning so you can start enjoying it now and make what you need to do it how you want. For me I spend every day with CNC machines and robots I love them for their ability to make us money. But the old machine like my shaper and planer, they are my old car type hobby. I enjoy tinkering with them during restoration and thinking about the guys who made them, made stuff on them, etc. those guys would have just got it spinning as soon as possible

Nathan
 
My post was simply a response to an erroneous sentiment I've sensed often, that older is necessarily better and that "They don't make them like they used to". In many ways that is true, but the advances made in 100 years are many and varied.

The few machine tools I've restored cost me many times what a new machine would to get to that point, it's a love of history, and maybe even the bad luck of the draw, that seeing a machine that may not be seen by anyone 50 years from now unless I do so effects me. I love the grand old machines and really do feel that in some ways they were built with more honesty than modern machine tools. But the guy who brings one back to life is going to pay for the neglect of others.

Question; Will anyone see what is now a modern VMC or turning center running in 2118? Is that even possible short of banking up supplies for it?
I listened to an SR71 pilot saying there is no way an SR71 could fly today, as so many specialized products were needed to supply them.
Maybe our CNC's will be running with fake empty computer boxes and some methodology we can't even conceive now out of sight actually activating the slides. Sort of like VFD's today instead of line shafts. :D

Maybe they will be like SR71's today, static displays. Why would anyone want to fly in an SR71 with all the expense and bother when they can be transported at the speed of light? That doesn't mean there wouldn't remain a love of history that makes people want to restore an SR71.
 
The restoration or repair of almost anything like old machine tools, old engine, old motorcycles, old vehicles... requires making parts or service tools. Having worked overseas where we had to work with what we had, I can say I can really appreciate this sort of thing.

Overseas, on job where I'd field design a small powerplant around a used medium speed diesel engine and generator (O-P Fairbanks) or around a Skinner Unaflow steam engine and boilers was where I cut my teeth in this sort of thing. I'd arrive on site not knowing what I was going to find other than the basic engine, generator and switchgear. I had no idea what sort of shop and construction equipment would be on hand and what the level of skills and expertise the local people on site would have. I also had no idea as to materials and much else we take for granted.

I learned a lot in a hurry. First off, nothing was scrap. Second off was often the building of a forge (fired on charcoal made by local "charcoal burners" from branches and tree trunks cut localls). With the forge built, we could make tools. This meant forging chisels out of rebar (which hardens nicely) as well as hot bending rebar (slow cooling in dry sand) and similar work. We usually had a beat up lathe and maybe a wobbly old drill press. On one job, the previous users of the lathes had crashed the carriages into the headstocks. Some of the quadrant gears had stripped teeth. We needed a lathe to cut threads on the anchor bolts to hold the engine and generator on the foundation. fortunately, we had an oxyacetylene outfit. I built up the busted teeth with brazing, then I ground a form tool bit as best I could freehand. I set the gears up on an ancient G & E shaper which sounded like a rock crusher when it ran. Using the shaper, with the gears clamped to the end of the table with angle iron and all thread, I was able to rough cut the teeth in the brazed repair. I then "ran them in", letting the bronze cold work to form. With the lathe running, we cut threads on the anchor bolts and did other jobs.

On another jobsite, we were about 100 miles off any paved road. By day, we ran a diesel power unit (a Brazilian copy of a German 4 cylinder water cooled diesel on a skid with lever operated clutch & radiator) which was belted up to a 25 Kw generator. The generator had a brush type exciter cantilevered off the end of the generator rotor shaft. The slapping of the vee belts as the generator came on and off load played hell with the exciter brushes and commutator. We had to turn the commutator, but needed that generator to make power to run the lathe (a new "Romi" lathe made in Brazil, set on wood skids in a dirt-floor barn where we stored parts and tools). The nameplate on the generator said the exciter used 110 volts DC. We had a Lincoln SA series welder with magneto ignition. It produced, in addition to DC welding current, 110 volt DC power to run a few lights and tools with "universal motors" such as angle grinders. We moved the welder to the generator shack, and disassembled the exciter, removing its armature. I then took a long extension cord and cut off the female end. I stripped the wires and connected them to the terminals in the wall-mounted control box where the exciter leads had connected.
We then started the diesel engine and clutched in the generator. Once it was rolling, we crank-started the Lincoln welder. We had excitation and got voltage. We took the armature to the barn and set it up in the Romi lathe. We then cut the commutator, and I undercut the mica using a hacksaw blade with the set ground off the teeth, one slot at a time. Once we had the generator back together, another fellow took some angle iron and steel and built a better bedplate with jacking screws to square the generator and hold belt tension.

On almost any of these jobs, we used to go to junkyards and buy anything that looked remotely useable. Using old axles that we softened in a fire was commonplace for getting "good steel". I learned to make-do with what was at hand and not look back at what I might have had been on a job in the USA. It was one of the most valuable lessons I ever learned in my life and I apply it continually to all aspects of my life. In plain English, bitching and moaning about what you do not have will not solve anything and just wastes time. If the name of the game is to get machine tools running, then use any means available. Ask an old farmer about this sort of thing. One old farmer was telling me a story about how they broke a splined shaft in a hay baler when it was needed most, during haying. The dealer said a new shaft, aside from the cost, would take a few days to get. He approached a local machine shop who gave him some answer like they they really did not want to take the job on. The old farmer had a lathe in his barn. It was not quite long enough to turn a new shaft, but his son did it with the tailstock half off the end of the bed. He used any likely chuck of round stock he could find in their iron pile. The splines were cut in with an angle grinder, and the shaft worked well enough to get them thru putting in their hay.

Rigging a temporary drive to get a machine tool running to make parts for another old machine tool is commonplace. It may mean cobbing up a bracket from 2 x 4's or scrap steel and hanging a motor and jackshaft off it. Another lesson I learned very early in my life is "there is no single right way to do very nearly anything". As long as it works safely and does the job, this is what matters. How many old flat belt driven lathes and mills are setup with drives using old automotive transmissions rather than countershafts with correct flat belt pulleys or gearboxes with proper ratios for machine tool drives ? How many old flat belt driven machine tools are setup with "turned in place" wooden pulleys rather than cast iron pulleys ? In short, if a person needs a machine tool to run to make parts for itself or another machine tool, getting it rigged up to run by any reasonable and imaginative means is what it's about.

I lost track of how many parts and service tools I've made for old "Airhead" BMW motorcycles. I can speak from experience, and say there is a special feeling or satisfaction that comes when I am riding a motorcycle with parts I made running in it, and having had work done using tools I made for the jobs. At 70 + mph, taking a nice curve, going with the bike nice and easy, it is quite a feeling. In 2008, the slip rings on the generator in my own old Lincoln welder failed. Lincoln had discontinued that machine and told me that the slip rings were from a "bad batch"- i.e.- brass tubing with a seam weld. They said I had gotten one of the "bad machines", but it was then about 25 years old. The local welding supply said it did not pay to repair my welder. I knew I could make a new insulating bushing and slip rings in my shop. A local "armature shop" who works on anything and everything said they'd work with me on repairing my welder. I machined a new insulating bushing from Micarta, and new slip rings from bronze- both scrap from the powerplant shop. I had to make a mandrel to turn the OD of the insulating bushing, and figure some interference fits. I got the bushing and slip rings in place on the rotor and silver-brazed the pigtails to the slip rings. The rewind shop did the rest, connecting the pigtails to the right windings, then dipping and baking the rotor and dynamically balancing it. I've used the welder many times since. Usually, I do not think about the slip ring repair, but when Hurricane Irene came thru, we were without power for ten days. We ran the welder a couple of hours at a time x 3 times a day to keep the refrigerator and freezer contents from spoiling and to run the well pump and boiler burner. We had hot showers and three squares a day thanks to that old welder. This past winter, we had a five day outage, and again, the old welder came through. When that snow storm outage ended, I gave that old welder a kiss on the generator sheet metal, and my wife gave it an affectionate pat. This is what having old machine tools and imagination are about. I machined the parts for the welder on an old South Bend heavy 10" lathe with a ridge worn on the front bedway and some backlash in the cross feed screw, and did it accurately enough to make the interference fits. I ground my own HSS tool bits. The next person might look at my lathe and turn up their nose. Knowing how to get the work out on old machine tools is part of the challenge.

In the real world, old machine tools are pretty much a non-starter, incapable of meeting today's requirements for production and accuracy. I am realistic. An old friend, a master toolmaker (since deceased, the guy who made the stainless steel case for my railroad pocket watch) once asked me if CNC could do the work he did. He had no DRO on his machine tools, and was into his 90's when he asked the question. He was machining jigs and fixtures for the grinding of prisms for medical lasers or something on that order. It was very fine work, and he was still being contracted to do it, despite being in the age of CNC machine tools. The oldtimer knew about CNC, and he asked me that question. I did not have the heart to tell him that CNC could do the work he was doing, aside from generating geometries that no human could manually machine. I told him CNC could not do the work he was doing (thinking in terms of the shop math he did on paper- waking me with phone calls at 2 AM or so to check his numbers- and in terms of his use of sine bars, rotary tables and similar on machine tools he'd scraped in to get the accuracy he required).

Machine tools are great teachers and for a home shop or occasional use on one or two special jobs in "working shops", the old machine tools have their place. I liken working on old machine tools to how two different people see a busted spring leaf or old axle: one sees junk to be disposed of, the next is already seeing what can be made from them or at least thinks in terms of ratholing them for future projects.
 
You did it again Joe, went through about a half cup of coffee reading and visualizing through your post there... good stuff!

I run antique power hammers as part of my bladesmithing business. I've used my smaller lathe and Index mill a fair amount to keep the 50 lb. Little Giant hammer going... the 300 lb Beaudry hammer needed LOTS of work, I used my 18" Hendey lathe and 8x24" Abrasive surface grinder and Rockwell and Powermatic bandsaws and everything else in my shop to get it going, and now I've just dragged home a 28" shaper to be able to do dovetail machining for dies and other projects.

It never ends, I just run out of space...

Not only are older machines affordable, but they teach you so much while putting them back into service. I love working on 'em (for the most part.)

And as mentioned, we are surrounded by the proud industrial heritage of the USA when working with these... very evocative of history if you let it be!
 








 
Back
Top