Rose & Straight line Engines.....

rivett608 · Apr 19, 2007

Once again this morning someone brought up the topic of these here...... so just kind of a survey to judge interest in these things.....

Who has a Rose engine?

Who has a Straight Line engine?

Who wants to buy one?

Who wants to build their own?

I'll go first (since I started this...) I have both a Rose and Straight line engine..... both French, rose early to mid 19th cent... straight line late 19th to early 20th cent.

And I want to build a small more modern type to use and miniature copies of some of the famous ones if I ever find the time....

sandiapaul · Apr 19, 2007

Have a straight line(it needs work to function)
I am seeking info on pattern bars holders so I can replicate one for mine which it is missing.

Love to buy a rose engine.

Love to build one(I think my budget limits me to building one)

L Vanice · Apr 19, 2007

I love to look at them, but don't plan to own or build one. A gentleman named Bass had me to his home around 1978 and showed me the two Holtzappfels in his front room.

My favorite was the 18th Century German Rococo rose engine in the London Science Museum. <a href="http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10322066&wwwflag=2&imagepos=1" target="_blank">Picture of Early Rose ornamental turning lathe, Germany, c 1750 (old B&W photo showing complete bench and overhead drive pulley).
</a>
Color picture, as it was displayed in the 1970's

Edited to add picture link and change Baroque to Rococo. I'm an engineer, not an art historian, but that is no excuse. I do try to learn, and I hate to mislead, hence the edit.

Larry

[ 04-19-2007, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: L Vanice ]

gwilson · Apr 19, 2007

Rivett,could you post pictures of your engines?I'd love to see them.

rivett608 · Apr 19, 2007

"18th Century German Baroque rose engine in the London Science Museum"... that is one of my favorites as well... you have really good taste........ I would love to know the history of that machine.... many of the parts such as the cross slide don't fit... it might be from something earlier.... there is also speculation that the whole thing might have been part of a automaton....... I have a bunch of photos of it in pieces and got to play with it once.....

Pictures of mine RE & SLE.... someday...

Topzman · Apr 19, 2007

Hello there,

I was at the Science Museum reserve collection and and they have lots of Rose Engine Machines.
Here is a picture of a nice one >>
http://www.members.aol.com/uroo/15.jpg

This is my 1st post so hope it works and is not too big!

SIP6A · Apr 19, 2007

I would like to find a streight line engine to do watch dials. I found a Plant for $15000.00 is this what one is worth or is that crazy money?

fen2art · Apr 19, 2007

Rivitt608,

Could you please explain the difference between a RE & SLE? I am planing to build the machine that the AAW has on there website (or my version thereof.

) It was featured in the last issue of their magazine. It was billed as a rose engine type lathe.

Phil

Topzman · Apr 19, 2007

Last year a pair of Plant machines sold for approx 25K, and a Neuwiler sold on the ebay for 14K. They sell for whatever one is willing to pay, and for what additional parts are with it, like chucks & bars & rosettes etc.

Gold Machinery usually has some straight lines for a lower price. They are either a Kenloc, Fields or other. >>> http://goldmachinery.com/machinery/antiques/index.htm
They are priced at about 4-5 K. Then you will need pattern bars, and you can actually make them on the machine.

Topzman · Apr 19, 2007

Straight line machines were used in the jewelry trade to embellish-engrave metal with straight & wavy lines. You can see these lines on many items made by Faberge. Here are two examples of the lines made on items and two of the last to be made modern all metal machines. The Plant Machine was manufactured in England and the Neuwiler is from Germany. Sorry to say, both companies are gone.

olderlathe · Apr 20, 2007

Don't have rose engine but have Grace slide rest to fit to my OT lathe. I think it would do the same thing but not as well. Rocking headstock mod would be easier route perhaps.

rivett608 · Apr 20, 2007

Topzman... Thanks for joining us and a big welcome... great pictures.... I also like that French RE you show from London.

Fen2art..... here is one way I explain the difference between a rose engine (RE) and a straight line engine (SLE)...... now keep in mind this is basic and I'm usually standing in front of a pair so it is easy to see.... these apply to the machines used for engine turning.... rose engines are also commonly used for doing 3-D wood turning and the like...

Both machines can engrave a wavy line on a piece of metal by moving the work against a fixed tool. The wavy line is created by the head of the machine being spring loaded and pushed against a pattern bar or cam (rosette). Now for the difference... a SLE makes a line from point to point..... that can be from the center of a circle radiating outward or up to down or left to right,etc. A RE makes a line that starts and stops at the same point as in a circle, an oval or any other shape...... now that is the simple way of putting this... where it gets tricky is with either machine a design is often created using on a small portion of a line.... as in a segment of a circle from a RE which looks like a curved straight line.... and then you can also use both machines on one piece of work making it really confusing... which is why some us like to play with these........ where it gets fun is when you can look at a Faberge egg and go... Oh I see how they did that.... it was set up on SLE with a da,da,da.... hope this helps.

kpotter · Apr 20, 2007

I have a kenloc straight line and am building a rose engine I am a jeweler and do enamel work. The reason I got into machine tools was I was unable to find a straght line machine and decided to build it myself. Well I found the straight line machine but have become completely obsessed with machine tools and am now building a roseengine I will post pics tonight of what I have finished.

sandiapaul · Apr 20, 2007

Kpotter,

Yes please post pics! YOu mentioned this on another thread a while back and I tried to email you but it bounced back, so I am anxious to see what your up to!

Topzman:
I understand how you could generate a pattern bar on the machine...but I can't understand how you could generate a new pattern, I only see making a duplicate of the bar you are using...can you explain to the newbie?
Thanks!

Topzman · Apr 20, 2007

When at the Science Museum the beatiful German Rococo Rose Engine was in a few pieces, guess it was being refurbished or being put together the correct way. Although it is very very nice, would say a work of art, wonder if it works. It must have, or the owner whould have sent it back to the maker until it did. Here are a few shots of it. I have some pictures of it togeter, but will have to dig for them.

Topzman · Apr 20, 2007

Sandiapaul,

Pattern Bars. It will be a bit of work, but Yes they can be made on a Straight Line machine. Although I have never done this, a old English engine turner showed me how he did it.

The blank bar or bars to be made are mounted horizontally on the holding chuck. You will be cutting straight lines so no pattern bar will be in the bar holder. To cut the lines into the bar you need to mount a small grinder on the slide rest. The grinding wheel must be dressed to the shape you want to cut. The geed will not work in this set up, so a depth stop device must be mounted on the slide. This is so all cuts are the same depth, and to prevent it from cutting too light or deep.

Once this is set up, you must decide on the pattern you want to index out. The straight line machine is the worked moving the bar down cutting a line, then raised, the side indexed as desired and repeated. A slow process and is much like an old planer working. The bars must be hardened after the cuts are completed.

The way I have them cut is by CNC mill, and if I have the extra money, then wire EDM. I have had bars made for others and the more the better the price.

Cache Dickerson · Apr 20, 2007

I am definitely interested in the forum topics. Out of 28 years in machine shop, 20 of those years are in tool making. I enjoy jewelry making, stone cutting, and knife making as hobbies. I tried enamelling 15 years ago. I became very interested in the connection between these ancient machine practices and tools and the work they are capable of. I hope to build a rose engine lathe soon. I will not buy one outright as I have 5 kids.

L Vanice · Apr 20, 2007

I am glad to see the German rose engine is in the conservation workshop. I hope that means they are planning to improve the display of it. When I saw it around 1978, it was in a small show case that only had room for the bare lathe without the overhead or bench. See the third post above for links to an old B&W photo of the whole machine and a color shot of the bare lathe.

Larry

Topzman · Apr 20, 2007

Here it is moving back together, even with what looks like a piece of boxwood in the chuck. It should be up and running now.

fen2art · Apr 20, 2007

Rivett608

Thanks for the insight.

Phil

Rose & Straight line Engines.....

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