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  1. #141
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    I have a swedish Vaernamo EV3, 470 mm (18 inch) travel, power-down tool holder (haven't dared to use it very much though), automatic tool lift (supposedly. Haven't got around to repair it yet), made in the fifties I think.
    A very versatile machine. Glad to see shapers are still popular. I must be one of the last generation to learn shaping here.
    I believe shapers were once produced in Denmark but I haven't seen any. Shapers are not a very common sight these days, I had an ancient one installed at our TC and the old boys gathered round it with tears in their eyes.
    Regards, fusker

  2. #142
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    I have a 7" Rhodes Mfg. Co. shaper. It has "No. 3200" clearly stamped in the frame, operator side, at the top left between the two slide adjusting screws. Don't know if this is Mfg. sn., but it sure looks like it. Noticed there was more than a few of these posted. Raises some questions: Does anyone know when these were made in Hartford, Conn.? Does anyone else have a number on theirs? Is there any historical record attached to this number if it is a serial no.?

    Puny compared to a lot of other posted shapers, but looks like this thing was meant to be bolted to the deck of a ship. Probably gonna put it on a mobile base.

  3. #143
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    Well I can't sit on the sidelines forever.....

    18" Mark Flathers, contains characteristics of both the "early" and "improved" version in Cope's book. From a super nice dude up in Maine, goes by restore49 here.



    The 5' New Haven planer gifted (he says I worked for it, but it was still an honor to receive it) to me by Robert Lang...



    Both still awaiting permanent homes along with the rest of the "preciouses".

    Jim

  4. #144
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    I have a 7" South Bend.

    Paula


  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimboggs View Post
    Well I can't sit on the sidelines forever.....

    18" Mark Flathers *** Jim
    Nice one! Would you mind sharing some details about the clapper box on your 18" MF? It looks like the box is quite deep: is the tool mounted behind the clapper?

    I've been getting a bit of tool bounce at the edge of the work. I've been toying with making a deeper box for my 6" AMMCO so I can move the taper pin and clapper further forward. Then I can put the HSS tool behind the clapper so the cutting edge is on the centerline of taper pin. Sort of like the geometry of a goose-neck lathe tool, but maybe I'm wasting my time with this. What do you think?


  6. #146
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    Picked up a 12" Sheldon this past August. You can see it here-
    http://picasaweb.google.com/GillsAlbum1/SheldonShaper#

    Gill McLane
    Navarre, FL

  7. #147
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    Jim,
    this may be off topic but I like your skid building and the way you secure down heavy machinery on the move. If only more people did it this way!
    Also, your shaper looks great, what make and year is it? Did it run on transmission in its last life?

    Cheers,
    Johann

  8. #148
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    Johann,

    Restore49 had the shaper loaded on the pallet, strapped to it and hanging from the bulldozer bucket when I arrived to pick it up. IIRC, we added the cleats to the pallet before we left.

    Needing to re-load the shaper along with all my other machines in a semi-trailer, I did re-pallet/skid on a much bigger skid. This insured nothing would bang into anything on another machine. I also bolted it to the new skid, the strapping did not survive the initial move.

    The shaper is a Mark Flathers built machine, approx. 1870's. No way to tell if if it was a early incarnation of an "improved" version, or simply a later build still containing aspects of "early" machines. Originally line-shaft now built with home-brew motor drive which you can see most of in the picture except the counter-shaft cone behind the v-belt pulley at the rear bottom.

    Bob Farr,

    I'll get in the trailer later this morning and get some close-up shots of the clapper for you. Somebody with a lot more machining experience than I (NONE!) will have to answer your question about bounce.

    Best,
    Jim

  9. #149
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    Default Who has gear shapers?

    I think they count: my Production Processes, Their Influence On Design book says that a gear shaper is a cross between an engine lathe and a crank shaper. I have one coming in soon (a 712 Fellows).These are very versicle As for crank shapers, G&E 20-24 Universal is my current one.(circa WWII) My first shaper was a G&E 20, 1918 , with a rebuild tag dated 1944 from Simmons, they also installed their Micro Speed variable speed drive.I owned this 74-79.In the 80's I had a Logan 8", & in 2003 I picked up a nice Atlas 7", now in my buddy's shop. Happy Shaping!

  10. #150
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    Only time I ever got a bounce was when running with the stroke set so close that the start of the cut was almost at the part (1/8" or less) at a high stroke rate. Gave it a touch more room/time for the clapper to settle down and never had another problem. Slowing stroke rate also works.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C. View Post
    Only time I ever got a bounce was when running with the stroke set so close that the start of the cut was almost at the part (1/8" or less) at a high stroke rate. Gave it a touch more room/time for the clapper to settle down and never had another problem. Slowing stroke rate also works.
    Thanks for the tip Mike. I figured the biggest contributing factor was my inexperience rather than clapper design. There is an article in one of my back issues of HSM about a clapper mod that realigned the leading edge of tool on the taper pin axis, so I thought that might help. If nothing else the project will add to my experience, or scrap box, or both.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Farr View Post
    Thanks for the tip Mike. I figured the biggest contributing factor was my inexperience rather than clapper design. There is an article in one of my back issues of HSM about a clapper mod that realigned the leading edge of tool on the taper pin axis, so I thought that might help. If nothing else the project will add to my experience, or scrap box, or both.
    Maybe I'm not understanding the problem, but with the sort of tool holder that came with SB and Atlas shapers, you can just run the holder backwards to move the point further back. Does yours lack the holder, or the room to place it? Or is that not far enough back? gooseneck.jpg

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruto View Post
    Maybe I'm not understanding the problem, but with the sort of tool holder that came with SB and Atlas shapers, you can just run the holder backwards to move the point further back. Does yours lack the holder, or the room to place it? Or is that not far enough back? gooseneck.jpg
    I don't have that kind of toolholdr that I can reverse, but I'll be looking for one now! I'm currently using a lantern post with the HSS tool on the forward face on the clapper. With a deeper clapper box I could keep the lantern but relocate the HSS tool to the aft face of the clapper which should align it with a taper pin moved forward by a deeper box. Like this crappy sketch, stock on top, my idea on bottom:



    Am I reinventing the wheel (and failing)?

  14. #154
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    Default My Shaper

    I have an Elliot Invicta 4M, 18" stroke, probably late 1950s or early 1960s. Bog standard, no power downfeed and fixed table and minus the original front table support and motor. But it was free if I collected it.

    Andrew

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Farr View Post
    I don't have that kind of toolholdr that I can reverse, but I'll be looking for one now! ...
    Am I reinventing the wheel (and failing)?
    Several people on the forum have fabricated and posted pictures of their own holders that pull the cutter over the work. I think that this solution yields a stiffer tool than what you are proposing to place behind the Clapper Pin.

    I may be corrected on this but it is my impression that it is important that the cutter be pulled not its position vis-a-vis the Clapper Pin. Of course, like many tools stiffness overcomes many problems.

    Raymond

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    One more Royal 10" shaper here. Tilting table and power up-feed:-


    It was pretending to be a power hacksaw in that pic, before I got a bandsaw.

    I couple of months ago I got a slotting head for the Beaver milling machine.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Farr View Post

    I've been getting a bit of tool bounce at the edge of the work. ...
    Tool bounce is mostly slop or bending that is being taken up or released.
    Suspects are: table, cutter, hinge pin and ram.

    It comes down to how rigid all the components are. Side play in the clapper box deflects the tool and can contribute its share, if the amount is to big.

    On my small 200 mm stroke Gastl there is no table support. Furthermore, I once clamped a workpiece between vise and clapper box and turned down the vertical slide to find 0,3 mm play in the square ways of the ram, as I tried to lift the ram.

    It also has chatter due to excessive play in the saddle nut. It overfeeds (as the table is light and keeps its momentum), followed by one or two strokes without feeding the table, resulting in chatter. After the play has been taken up it again overfeeds and the process starts over again. I found out that (contrary to proper use) when I set the table feed in the forward stroke, it cuts very smooth all the time, as the components are under load.

    Just my €0.02

    Danny

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDL View Post
    I may be corrected on this but it is my impression that it is important that the cutter be pulled not its position vis-a-vis the Clapper Pin. Of course, like many tools stiffness overcomes many problems.

    Raymond
    exactly.
    My thought is that the principal idea for this toolholder is the relation between the pivot point and the position of the cutting edge of the tool when it deflects under load.

    A conventional toolbit "digs in" under load (pivot point behind cutting edge). With a "goosneck" tool the cutting edge lifts up and out of the workpiece because the cutting edge is behind, or closer to the pivot (deflection) point. Hence quieter and smoother running.

    tool-deflection1.jpeg

    In the picture above, the tool digs in.

    tool-deflection2.jpg

    In this picture above, the tool lifts free.

    Danny

  19. #159
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    Thanks for the input Danny. My goal in making a new box and clapper was improve the relation between the pivot point and the cutting edge and get something like the gooseneck tool effect. But I think my downfall is in assuming that the rearward pivot point of tool deflection is the same as the forward pivot point of the clapper: the taper pin axis.

    From a tool deflection standpoint, during the forward cutting stroke, it looks like the tool deflection pivot point is the really the back face of the tool where it contacts the lowest forward edge of the clapper box (in my drawing, it's the forward edge of the lantern holder, which rests against the forward edge of the box). In that case, the position of the taper pin relative to the tool cutting edge is irrelevant: if the cutting edge of the tool is forward of the point where that tool contacts the box, deflection will cause it to dig in. The gooseneck tool's bent geometry permits the cutting edge of the tool to be at or behind the deflection pivot point where its own back face meets with the box. In Raymond's words, the gooseneck tool "pulls" its cutting edge behind its own deflection pivot point.

    I get it, I think. And that means my redesigned clapper & box will not accomplish what a gooseneck tool will. Back to the drawing board. And I'll check the sources of slop in my machine, too.

    Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyW View Post
    exactly.
    My thought is that the principal idea for this toolholder is the relation between the pivot point and the position of the cutting edge of the tool when it deflects under load.

    A conventional toolbit "digs in" under load (pivot point behind cutting edge). With a "goosneck" tool the cutting edge lifts up and out of the workpiece because the cutting edge is behind, or closer to the pivot (deflection) point. Hence quieter and smoother running. ***
    Danny

  20. #160
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    I sweated blood trying to make my little shaper work including trying to improve on the tool but at the end of the day I made more progress by going back to basics and paying attention to the wider picture, work clamping, ram gibs snug, clapper free to move, tools sharp, feed working properly.

    BTW, my experience with trying to mount the cutting tip behind the clapper axis was a failure and eventually led to chatter.


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