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    Default Shaper problems

    Almost a year ago I bought an Erdmann shaper (350mm/14"). I haven't had time to use it more than for a couple of small jobs. Finally today I had time to play with it. First observation (something I have noticed obviously earlier) that there is quite a lot of vice lift. With a piece on the top half of the jaws I measured 0.25mm (0.01") lift. With the Vertex I have on my drill press, I get maybe one tenth of that. So I guess I need to get a new swivel base vice. Until that I'll switch the Vertex on Shaper.

    erdmann2.jpg

    Another problem is that the shaper table sags. Initially I measured 0.2mm (0.008")sag over table length. I took the cube off and noticed that the bottom way is somewhat worn as is the corresponding table slide part. I deburred the cube and table slide surface and put it together. I was able to get the sag to 0.06mm (0.0024")but there I already played a bit with cube. If I would like to get even better what would the best option for that (scraping the ways is not on option)? Shim the cube? There is no table support on this shaper.

    erdmann1.jpgerdmann3.jpgerdmann4.jpg

    Third problem is that one of the previous owners has broken the end of the cross feed screw. Where there should be two nuts is now one nut. A set screw has been added to that nut in order to lock the nut but it doesn't really work. This results in that the autofeed doesn't work in other direction as the ratchet makes the screw just go back and forth. Any ideas how to fix this? Maybe I need to drill a hole for the set screw.

    erdmann5.jpg

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    A shaper really needs outboard support. If I have a part that needs its top surface to be in tight tolerance to the top of table, I’ll sweep the table with dti while lowering it onto the outboard support before locking the cross to the body. Can get sub one thou over 24” that way on the shaper I’ve had the most time on. Really most of the time, work I do on a shaper is roughing while I’m doing something else...

    L7

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    It doesn't look like you have a front table support to help take some load off the crossfeed. Looks like there is some wear on the lower side of the crossfeed rails.......not a tremendous amount.
    Another thing, if you are relying on the ram to measure table droop, that might be misleading, wear in the ram or the ways it slides in, will throw your measurements off.

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    It looks like there is a screw for adjustment of the table where it hooks over at the top, that would need to be tight first. You should check for squareness between the table top and the front of the column and then compare the ram to the front of the column. That will tell you how much the cross slide is worn. The wear on the bottom does not look too bad though.

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    "Hook over" at top rear is where the wear is. May be a gib there to snug up, but that may result in binding at ends of travel

    The upper rear of "saddle" will be worn "hollow" in middle - letting outer end of table describe a large radius arc as it travels from one extreme to the other

    Simple micrometer checks of thickness along top of "saddle" will show this

    Thumbnail shows also wear in middle of top edge on this 36" OHIO shaper
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dcp_0633.jpg  

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    There is a tapered gib between the saddle hook and the cross rail. That I tightened snug yesterday, as well as the gib at the bottom of the table. The top gib was maybe a little loose. I guess tightening those helped a little. There is visible wear on the top of the cross rail.

    How could I check the squareness between the vertical slides and the table? All I have is the dti and engineer's square...

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    Rough would be square on table top and indicating edge of square's blade with indicator on vertical - moving the slide up and down (first though, you need to get swivel head on front of ram so travel of slide is truly vertical)

    More precise (but making assumption) would be big parallel strapped to side of table and indicate it
    The assumption being side is square to top (?)

    ( A good thing to own is a good size CYLINDER SQUARE)

    Change subject...

    Mentioned by you but yet to be addressed is jaw lift on vise

    The way I combat this is the run jaw up against part, SNUG DOWN JAW GIBS/RETAINER PLATES before final tightening of work piece. Following final tightening, I swat work piece a good blow or two with a large heavy dead blow hammer. If it is on parallels, I check them for being tight

    Quote Originally Posted by jpt View Post
    There is a tapered gib between the saddle hook and the cross rail. That I tightened snug yesterday, as well as the gib at the bottom of the table. The top gib was maybe a little loose. I guess tightening those helped a little. There is visible wear on the top of the cross rail.

    How could I check the squareness between the vertical slides and the table? All I have is the dti and engineer's square...

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    I'm using a plastic mallet when tightening the workpiece. No matter what I do I cannot get the parallels underneath tight. I'll take the vice apart and see if there is some wear that I can address. I will try to measure the squareness as well, although I'm a bit lost on the comment on the swivel head...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpt View Post
    I'm using a plastic mallet when tightening the workpiece. No matter what I do I cannot get the parallels underneath tight. I'll take the vice apart and see if there is some wear that I can address. I will try to measure the squareness as well, although I'm a bit lost on the comment on the swivel head...

    The jaw will lift if the retainer plates (gibs?) are not absolutely preventing that

    Getting them tight is at least as important as getting the workpiece tight

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post

    The upper rear of "saddle" will be worn "hollow" in middle - letting outer end of table describe a large radius arc as it travels from one extreme to the other

    Simple micrometer checks of thickness along top of "saddle" will show this
    You were right. There is roughly 0.03 mm difference in the thickness between the center and the sides. When the gib was tightened snug in the center it was already a bit too tight on the side.

    I measured the squareness between the ram and vertical ways. I wont win any competitions with my measurement arrangements , but I'm fairly confident that the ram and the ways are perpendicular pretty accurately. Whereas the saddle isn't as the picture clearly shows.

    ram_vertical.jpgtable_vertical.jpg

    I then took the the table and saddle off once again to do some more measurements. The lower part of the saddle seems to be somewhat worn as well. I measured 0.02-0.03 mm difference in the thickness between the top and bottom part. This and the wear in other parts sums up to the droop I guess. When I put the machine back together I placed two layers of cigarette paper (each 0.03 mm thick) between the bottom of the table and saddle. After that the top of the table was parallel to the ram movement. There was less than 0.01mm difference. Obviously the top of the saddle still droops. I guess one of these days I need to learn scraping, but this will do for the time being.

    saddle.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    The jaw will lift if the retainer plates (gibs?) are not absolutely preventing that

    Getting them tight is at least as important as getting the workpiece tight
    There are no gibs in this vice, just retainer plates. I can fairly easily get a 0.05 mm feeler gauge between tha jaw and the base in the middle position. I took the vice apart and noticed that there is quite a bit of wear at the bottoms of the jaws. I plan to use the shaper to machine those and the base. But before that I need to get a depth micrometer.

    vice1.jpgvice2.jpgvice3.jpgvice4.jpg

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    You really need to get the table top parallel to the ram before fixing the vice (bed or swivel base). If you do work on the vice first → any use of the swivel function of the vice will cause more error between the piece part top and the table bed.

    With your vice (double acting) both jaws will have some lift no matter what you do. Better to get some hold downs if you’re trying to do really fine work. These things ride up the vice jaw (pushing it up) while pinching the work down to the vice bed (like magic). Pic of several attached (there were solutions before pull down vices & talon jaws marking up the part...).

    Good luck,
    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails holddowns.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpt View Post
    I'm using a plastic mallet when tightening the workpiece. No matter what I do I cannot get the parallels underneath tight. I'll take the vice apart and see if there is some wear that I can address. I will try to measure the squareness as well, although I'm a bit lost on the comment on the swivel head...
    You don't say whether your plastic mallet is a dead blow type or not. I have dead blow hammers, but they aren't as good as a rawhide or lead hammer for seating parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    You don't say whether your plastic mallet is a dead blow type or not. I have dead blow hammers, but they aren't as good as a rawhide or lead hammer for seating parts.
    No, it's not dead blow. Now that you mentioned the lead hammer, I need to find the brass hammer I have somewhere. Actually, I might have a copper hammer as well...

    Today I put the Vertex vice on the shaper. After adding some more shims, I got the vice miked within 0.01 mm (0.0004"). I shaped a piece of 25 mm square stock, and the thickness was within 0.02 mm (0.0008"). I'm quite happy with that. I did the same test earlier with the original setup and then the thickness was within 0.15 mm (0.006"), so there was quite an improvement.


    vertex.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpt View Post
    No, it's not dead blow. Now that you mentioned the lead hammer, I need to find the brass hammer I have somewhere. Actually, I might have a copper hammer as well...
    Pure copper works fine, like lead with less mushrooming. I have never been impressed with brass hammers. But leave the plastic mallet to your ham handed friends that are capable of using it to break an anvil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Pure copper works fine, like lead with less mushrooming.
    I just found the copper hammer. I've actually never used it, it came with some stuff I bought over ten years ago. I'll put it into use now.

    copper_hammer.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post
    It doesn't look like you have a front table support to help take some load off the crossfeed. Looks like there is some wear on the lower side of the crossfeed rails.......not a tremendous amount.
    Another thing, if you are relying on the ram to measure table droop, that might be misleading, wear in the ram or the ways it slides in, will throw your measurements off.
    My cincinnati universal 16 is designed without any outboard support
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails imag1202.jpg  


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