Shaper or Slotter??

I build large scale traction engines as a hobby. I am looking at getting another machine to add to my armoury, but not sure what is best. I need to cut mostly keyways and some flat supports in places where you cannot get an endmill.

I have seen others use an "E" shaping head on the Bridgeport but these are way to much £££££ these days. The next option is a small shaper like an Alba 1a or Elliot 10m, these would work I think, just a matter of figuring out the work holding method.

But I have also seen a vertical shaper or slotter for sale, would this be even better??

Both would seem to do the job and both have pro's and con's, the shaper is more useful but harder to mount the work for slotting, the slotter would be easier to mount but less useful for other jobs.

Not sure where to splash the cash.

Any ideas as to the most useful option here?

Dave

A picture of some of the bits i need to machine, they are circled in black, there are also two more visible on the other side of the two bores.

The Bridgeport E head goes for about $1,300 here in the US (which I think is way too much).

While a 7" Atlas/AAMCO-type shaper can be lifted by one strong person, the typical "small" vertical shaper has a 6" stroke but weighs over two tons. They certainly are not less expensive than a Bridgeport E head! I'm sure smaller and lighter vertical shapers were made, but they would be exceeding rare in the US.

Personally, if I had another 125 square feet in my shop, I would snap up the next Pratt&Whitney 6" vertical shaper that looked in decent condition. It would be an outstanding machine for the sort of work I do. But space does not permit...

E-heads are listing for £1500-£2000 here - stupid price, I would never pay it if i had the money.

There are shapers on ebay for £200-£300 and also a 4" stroke slotter for the same money.

It does look heavier than a shaper, but seems to have less other uses than the shaper??

Dave K2 said:

But I have also seen a vertical shaper or slotter for sale, would this be even better??

Both would seem to do the job and both have pro's and con's, the shaper is more useful but harder to mount the work for slotting, the slotter would be easier to mount but less useful for other jobs.

Click to expand...

I've got a shaper and a slotter. I also have both a horizontal & vertical mill.

There's not much a shaper can do that the mills can't except cost a lot less for the tooling. However there are jobs the slotter can do that the mills can't, and that can only be done on the shaper by various workholding kludges.

If the price is right and you have the space I'd get the slotter. I know that I wouldn't part with mine even though it may be a couple years between times I use it.

PDW

If it was me i'd get both. I have been looking at shapers on ebay uk for a while and they go for small money, had I the floor space i'd have one. What milling machine do you have ? A slotting head may be available but probably be expensive, the heads for tom seniors go for £400-£600 for instance.

Keyseaters can be useful. Some designs can be adapted to do lots
more than cut internal keyways. Mostly limited by ones imagination
and ability to adapt accessories. Don't take up alot of room and can be handy
for a work table when not in use. Tread mills not so handy as work tables.

Ive got an Adcock-shipley 2E horizontal and a bridgeport, the "E" heads are currently fetching £2000 and i would never pay that.

I think the slotter is the way forwards as workholding on the shaper will be very problematic.

The work you showed is for a shaper, or better for a mill. A slotter won't help, as the cut will stop in the work (and break the tool soon).
A slotter is great for internal keyway, and bad for external ones.
Generally (and quite crude), a slotter is for internal work, a shaper for external. Just look at how the tool is held in them. Yes, there are ways to work around, I know.
A small shaper always has a table much too small. You can't clamp your work, and so they get useless. Don't judge by the stroke, but by the size of the table.

Nick

Nick Mueller said:

A small shaper always has a table much too small. You can't clamp your work, and so they get useless. Don't judge by the stroke, but by the size of the table.

Nick

Click to expand...

Yes, true. I machined some 150 x 12 hot rolled angle iron and bolted it to the table of my shaper to make the working surface bigger.

PDW

If you want to make gears and do internal splines a slotter is better. Most have built in rotary tables. many have methods to gear the table for auto feeds. If you want to do flat work, the shaper is handier. Nick is right about table size. Little machines may seem to have enough stroke for a given job, but the tables are too small and too lightly made (in comparison to a proper size shaper) to handle decent size work pieces or accessories like dividing heads with centers, etc. or larger vises.

smt

Good slotters (such as Pratt & Whitney) can have their tool positioned for any cut - left, right, back, front - the clapper box is rotatable

Its turned around backwards on this big job in their 12"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/johnoder/PW Vert Shaper Circular 423-2/Pg9.jpg

That is large scale! I owned a forty horse Case thirty years ago. If you are shopping for a shaper, there is a lot of benefit in a universal type. Either way, you are going to need a good assortment of angle plates/v-blocks. Where are photos of your work? Website?

Having had a look at your casting to be machined, A lot of thought has not been given in the design stage as to how one would be able to machine inside the brackets, (I assume they are to hold the engine slide bars, As it is a model , I would imagine these brackets are not far in from the edge of the casting, (say 1&1/2"distance Guess ?) I would be inclined to mount a large slitting saw up and cut a kerf across at the bottom of the brackets to a depth of just below the depth, you are going to machine to, I would think a 1/8" thick saw would do fine, Then this is a case that lends itself to a component one would accurately plane to size on a slotting machine , I assume, one would machine accurately the bottom face of recess, sides , and top of the little side walls, As long as you have tool clearance at the end of your cut, and you brush or blow away your cuttings , the slotter is par excellence. Trying tto use milling cutters on a task like this I feel would be a springy horrible experience

I have a 6"stroke Denham slotting machine, and a 10" & six inch stroke shaper, they are three excellent machine tools, As an add on to this explanation, Many years ago I manufactured a spring loaded relieving clapper box tool holder, My slotting machine is a very handy vertical planer for outside shapes on castings etc.

Old thread alert !


What did the OP go for and how did it work out ?

Dave K2 doesn't seem to have posted for nearly 2 yrs ,up to that point he was a regular,hope he is OK.

Yes,it would have been nice to know the outcome. One way traffic,I suppose. In full size practice in such situations a pocket would be cast to allow the tool to run into free space.

I am rather sure that you have made your purchase by now, but a Bridgeport Quillmaster attachment with a selection of conical tipped cutters would be able to “square-up” your inside and bottom corners. The collet is limited to 3/16” dia. There is also a right angle head that will clamp onto the Quillmaster. They can consume some time, but they beat the ass off of a handful of die sinker’s chisels and riffle files. From the little that I can see, a rotary table with a fixture plate on top, with dowel holes bored from the center pivot for location might help with the set up.I had a Case 40 hp traction engine nearly forty years ago. It now lives in Sweden.