Sheldon Nose Spindle Help
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  1. #1
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    Default Sheldon Nose Spindle Help

    Hello,
    I just purchased a Sheldon WS-56P Metal Lathe. I know that I have a D1-4 spindle mount with a collet center. However, it seems I need to remove something in order to mount my 3 jaw chuck. img_4977.jpgimg_4976.jpg

    Thanks for your help!

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    Run something big enough thru bore from left end to knock collet closer out

    This would assume any collet draw tube was out

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    See those drilled and tapped holes on the face of that piece sticking out in front of the spindle? Run a couple of bolts in those holes and jack out the collet adapter. You might be able to run a bar as JO said from behind and knock out the adapter, but I doubt it on the smaller Sheldon lathes. That's the reason for the threaded holes for jacking out the adapter. Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4GSR View Post
    See those drilled and tapped holes on the face of that piece sticking out in front of the spindle? Run a couple of bolts in those holes and jack out the collet adapter. You might be able to run a bar as JO said from behind and knock out the adapter, but I doubt it on the smaller Sheldon lathes. That's the reason for the threaded holes for jacking out the adapter. Ken
    Good catch their Ken!

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    Make sure you have the chuck's mating taper rust free and spotless before installing on spindle taper. In fact, make that chuck purty too. Your Sheldon deserves it.

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    According to the manual (available in the "files" section of the Sheldon Lathe site) if the lathe serial number is prior to 27310 it came with either a threaded or An L series spindle. The D1-4 spindle mount is something added, if the serial number is greater than 27310 it could be a factory installation.

    Yahoo! Groups

    Since there is no lock ring visible for the L series spindle it is either an earlier model with a threaded spindle (and an adaptor) or a later model with the factory Di-4 spindle. Just by the look of the adaptor I am guessing it's an earlier model with an after market add on. There are 3 holes on the diameter that look like they are meant to be used with the proper diameter bar to unscrew the D1-4 spindle adaptor.

    My MW-56P (L00 Style chuck mount) uses a drawbar through the spindle and a collet adaptor in the spindle itself. The spindle threads are protected by a "nose protector". I believe the drawbar and collet adaptor are interchangeable with some South Bend models. My machine has a 1 3/8 through hole in the spindle and an M5 taper. In fact the drawbar and wrench that came with my machine (I bought the machine used) both say South Bend on them.

    Here's a link to a collet adaptor and nose protector for a South Bend machine:
    5-C COLLET NOSEPIECE & REMOVER FOR HEAVY 10 SOUTH BEND LATHE W/ 2 1/4"-8 SPINDLE | eBay

    This adaptor fits an M5 spindle taper.

    As for removing the collet adaptor from either style spindle there is a removal tool fed through the spindle from the rear. The front of the tool mates against the rear of the collet adaptor and a hammer is used to tap the adaptor from the spindle. Here's a link to a reproduction South Bend collet adaptor removal tool.

    South Bend Lathe reproduction Knock out bar for collet removal | eBay

    As an FYI my machine didn't come with the removal tool. I made one from 5/8 aluminum round stock threaded to a section of 1 3/8 round stock. I also added a 1 3/8 collar about half way down the shaft to better locate the tool in the spindle.

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    With a closer look at the pictures I believe 4GSR has the answer. It looks like the chuck bore is large enough to fit part way over the collet adaptor. If the pictures aren't distorted it looks like the boss closest to the chuck adaptor is slightly tapered. There might be enough taper that the chuck will fit flat to the D1-4 adaptor once the collet adaptor is removed. I just hope the ID of the D1-4 adaptor is the same size as the bore of the spindle.

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    Projectnut,

    Need to look at the parts manuals a little closer. The D1-4 spindle was an option prior to s/n 27310. It was an integral piece to the spindle, not threaded on. I also have a 1962 catalog that shows offering the D1-4 spindle as an option. 27310 would be around 1965, a couple of years after my catalog came out. The D1-4 spindle came out around s/n 20000, that would make it in the early 1950's. Also, the spindle is not a no. 5 Mores Taper and it is not the same taper as the South Bend lathe, and it's not a no. 5 MT either. Close but the tapers are slightly different. I found that out on my 13" and 15" Sheldon lathes. The Sheldon is what I consider a Morse 4-3/4 taper, which is no such thing in the books. It measures right at 1.625" at the face of the spindle and has the same taper as a no. 5 MT.

    Now, one thing that may be different between our lathes, Mine are L-00 and L-0 respectively. Both have the same taper in the spindle, both take my collet adapter that came with my 13" which I've had since 1979. The D1-4 spindle may have a true no. 5 MT in the spindle. Does your measure around 1.740-1.750" at the face of the spindle? Regardless, This is the first collet adapter I've seen with draw out bolt holes on it. I like that, it also can act as a stop for not drawing up the adapter too far into the spindle, and also movement as it's being used.

    Ken S.

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    I stand corrected on the D1-4 spindle being available only after serial number 27310. A closer look showed I missed it in the earlier parts manual. I do disagree however on whether the taper is a #5 MT even though it measures 1.625" at the face of the spindle. I have several #5 MT dead centers. They match the taper on my spindle and the taper on my collet adaptor. Also the G48 and G55 Brochures state the M and T series machines came with an #5 MT taper in the headstock, and an #3 MT taper in the tailstock. Sheldon also sold a #5-#3 MT and a #5-#2 MT reducer sleeve to "reduce the Morse taper to fit standard spindle accessories".

    I believe the taper on the S series lathes is referred to as a "Short #5 MT", in that it matches the dimensions of the standard #5 MT, but the taper is only about 2" in length rather than the standard 5.19". Measuring from the small end of an 8 1/2" #5 MT dead center the tapers match from approx. the 1" point to the 3" point There have been several discussions on this machine and this "short taper" on both this board and the Sheldon Lathe discussion board.

    Here's a link to a drawing of the collet adaptor for an S series lathe. It's almost identical to the one I have from South Bend.

    https://xa.yimg.com/df/Sheldonlathe/...&type=download

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    sheldon used the taper angle of 5MT....
    south bend used the taper angle of 3MT...

    while they may be of approx same physical size they are in fact different.

    no such thing as a screw on D1-4 spindle adapter,nor should there be.
    Last edited by iwananew10K; 02-12-2019 at 09:47 PM.

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    For few years in the 1960's South Bend made 17" geared head lathe called the Turn-nado. The spindle had a 2 9/16 through hole and a #5 MT spindle taper. I believe the collet drawbar and taper attachment that came with my lathe may have originally been for one of these machines. I'll post some pictures of the setup tomorrow. The collet adaptor is definitely a #5 MT taper and accepts 5C collets. The drawbar and nose protector ring wrench are clearly marked South Bend.

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    2-9/16 is too large for standard 5MT, 5MT would slide though without even touching the sides.

    SB did offer some machines with standard tapers in later years though.

    But we are now off topic. The OP's problem has been solved by JO and 4GSR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by projectnut View Post
    Since we haven't heard back from the OP we don't know if the problem has been resolved. I offered some information on the subject that was contradicted with a blanket statement that South Bend didn't offer a #5 MT spindle. When I offered information that they did in fact make such a spindle I was again contradicted with the statement that it couldn't be done given the dimensions I cited.

    Here are a couple documents to support the information I forward earlier. I doubt South Bend made serious errors in their advertising brochures

    Attachment 249531


    Attachment 249530

    Note the highlighted spindle bore, and spindle taper.
    The taper in the spindle of the 2 9/16” hole spindle was 200 American Standard (IIRC). A reducing sleeve was used to achieve the #5MT
    Ted

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    If I recall, the 17" Turn-nado that SBL built was a D1-6 spindle, not a D1-4.

    I still stand correct on what I said in my previous post. It is NOT a no. 5 MT in the Sheldon spindles. It not even a 4-1/2 MT either.

    True, a No. 5 MT center will fit, it just sticks out a bit from normal. The taper is not the same as it is on a South Bend lathe. i'm referring to the old school flat leather belt drive lathes. Check out the SBL book "Ho to Run A Lathe" last page in the book on basic dimensions of the different sizes of lathes. It says what the taper per foot is and the diameter at the face of the spindle. Taper per foot does not match Morse Tapers at all!

    And getting back to the Sheldon catalog literature, I'm pretty sure they made some mistakes calling it a 5 MT. It was easy to do things like this back then. The collet adapter I have matches the drawing in the files section on Sheldon Lathes. John Knox, if he is still around always refered to the taper as not being a standard size too, and he worked for Sheldon back in his days.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4GSR View Post
    If I recall, the 17" Turn-nado that SBL built was a D1-6 spindle, not a D1-4.


    Ken
    The 17” had a D1-8 spindle nose.
    Ted

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    Here's a link to the 1964 South Bend Turn-nado brochure. Apparently the machine was introduced in 1962 and was in the line up until at least 1968.

    http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/16552.pdf

    In the small print under "standard Equipment it does include a #4 MT reducer sleeve, and a #5 MT center. There is no mention of a reducing sleeve for the #5 MT center, but it's possible that not every bit of information is included in the catalogs or sales brochures These same specifications are in at least 3 other product catalogs on the Vintage Machinery website published by South Bend from 1962 to 1968.

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    As Ken highlighted, any MT5 tooling would rattle by a lot in the spindle bore. I think that a comma is clearly missing in the list of the accessories provided (it doesn't make sense for a sleeve to have a 60° point) and it should read instead:

    ...Spindle Sleeve, No. 4 MT 60° Center, No. 5 MT 60° Center...

    The sleeve is of unspecified tapers. The 4 MT center is clearly for the tailstock and, the 5 MT center must match the inside taper of the spindle sleeve.

    Let's not beat any longer this dead horse, since it doesn't even get close to the original topic.

    Paolo

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    Thanks for the great debate everyone. I was able to knock the adapter out. I am turing a tool like described above if it ever gets jammed again. And yes that 3 jaw chuck is nice and pretty now.

    On a side note, does anyone know how to get approved for the Sheldon group. I requested membership and followed the directions, but have had no response after about 6 days. Trying to get my worthington all speed drive wired up single phase and apparently there is a lot of good info in there.

    Thanks a bunch,
    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvernon View Post
    Thanks for the great debate everyone. I was able to knock the adapter out. I am turing a tool like described above if it ever gets jammed again. And yes that 3 jaw chuck is nice and pretty now.

    On a side note, does anyone know how to get approved for the Sheldon group. I requested membership and followed the directions, but have had no response after about 6 days. Trying to get my worthington all speed drive wired up single phase and apparently there is a lot of good info in there.

    Thanks a bunch,
    Matt
    Matt you have to be patient if I remember correctly, I seem to remember it took a few days for they guy to read his requests. Be patient. I seldom go there as I do not like the format, but it does indeed have a wealth of information and knowledgeable people. I own two Sheldon lathes and the information from the group and John Knox in particular was priceless.

    Warren


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