Sidney Machine Tool Company 14" Lathe - Light restoration thread
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  1. #1
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    Default Sidney Machine Tool Company 14" Lathe - Light restoration thread

    Unloaded a new lathe into the shop this morning. Needs a bit of work, but should suit the dedicated tasks it will be performing with a little restoration. shop number 2185, lot number 183. I'm guessing it to be from about 1915-1925, though that is just a guess.

    The good:
    -Lead screw seems to be just about mint, halfnuts seem to be the same.
    -no spindle play, bearings all seem to be alright.
    -mostly, if not all complete.
    -everything moves more or less freely.
    -Gears all look to be in very good shape.
    -Drive-all unit added at some point, gives a bit more control if I want it.

    The bad:

    -The cross feed screw has a bit more play than I want. May end up needing to redo the screw or nuts.
    -cone clutch gear in the apron for the power feed is frozen in the disengaged position. Gonna have to tear the apron apart.
    -Saddle tool holder slot messed up on one end, although tool holders still clamp down nicely .
    -the apron was repaired at some point, brazed right down the center. Ugly, but seems to be well done.
    -Ways gouged in several spots, though they are in decent shape with little wear.
    -Electric: 110v, rather than 220v, 18g cord, drum switch wired backwords, switches mounted badly and in weird spots.
    -Paint is good in spots, but at least 50% of it was done over a thick layer of grease. They also sprayed over things like handles, racks, screw threads, indicator dials, etc.
    -missing the lever for half nut engagement. Gonna have to make or buy one somewhere.
    -missing locking lever for the tailstock.


    The basic plan:

    Fix apron issues: fix cone gear clutch, check cross feed screw, replace engagement lever, clean, strip and paint apron. Fix saddle.
    Strip paint off the whole thing, redo paint.
    Stone ways, add wipers.
    Replace any other missing parts, tighten up what I can.
    disassemble headstock, replace one oiler, wicks, etc.

    I think that just about does it. I'll update as I get stuff done. Most likely about a month with my current workload.
    In the meantime, if anyone has any info on older Sidney lathes, manuals or even just basic info I'd love to get a copy. I think Monarch currently owns what is left of the company, but I am not holding out hope that they have any sort of documentation in what they acquired when they bought the rest of the company in the 60s.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2018-03-17-19.27.58.jpg   2018-03-17-19.28.03.jpg   2018-03-17-19.28.09.jpg   2018-03-17-19.28.18.jpg   2018-03-17-20.49.34.jpg  


  2. #2
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    I got you this off the VM site;

    http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/750/17201.pdf

    Good luck with the refurb.

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    Never much liked that overhead drive deal, the belts run right where I like to put my hand!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeakyCanoe View Post
    I got you this off the VM site;

    http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/750/17201.pdf

    Good luck with the refurb.
    Thanks. Thats about all I have been able to find myself. I sent Monarch a request for any information they might have. We shall see what results, if any, that yields.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Never much liked that overhead drive deal, the belts run right where I like to put my hand!
    Same here. I may do some modification there and either sling the motor below If I can or leave it where it is and fab up some guards/enclosures. Its not my hand placement I worry about as much as I don't like how unbalanced and top heavy the overhead configurations make the machine. I think that I may be able to mill two slots below the headstock pulleys and return it to flat belt drive, but I am going to wait until the headstock apart to determine that.

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    cone clutch gear in the apron for the power feed is frozen in the disengaged position. Gonna have to tear the apron apart.
    Before that, see if you can break it loose - big water pump pliers with padded jaws or similar.

    On the other hand, learning about apron guts is good, but involves large effort

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Before that, see if you can break it loose - big water pump pliers with padded jaws or similar.

    On the other hand, learning about apron guts is good, but involves large effort
    Yeah, true. Aprons are a pain to get into. This will be the 3rd apron I've had to rip apart out of 4 lathe rebuilds. Furthermore, this is the first apron that I will NEED to pull out off the right end of the lead screw rather than disassemble in the center of the lathe. Too many non accessible bolts on the interior of the apron. Cant even access the last three bolts holding the saddle onto the ways with the apron on, so I can't simply lift the saddle and tilt the apron out to access the bolts I need to.

    Rather than "Frozen" I should have just said not engaging. If it was engaged your suggestion would likely work. Since the inner gear and outer gear spin freely independently of one another, there is likely old grease, swarf, grime or something preventing the cone clutch from locking together.

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    Is there a weld bead on that apron? Just about centered and top to bottom.

    Tim in D

    on edit.........Oh, I see you mentioned that in the original post

    DOH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Before that, see if you can break it loose - big water pump pliers with padded jaws or similar.

    On the other hand, learning about apron guts is good, but involves large effort
    +1 on that.

    Moving a 12,000 lbs. Lathe

    And I did hardly any of the work to fix that.

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    Another but a giant 25" that got scrapped because the whole carriage saddle was broken in half and brazed back together

    They thought having a big turret there was just fine a hundred years ago - maybe not enough engineering went into that plan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sidney-002.jpg   sidney-004.jpg   sidney-006.jpg   sidney-005.jpg  

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    From 1920:
    1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-4of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-5of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-1of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-2of4.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-3of5.jpg
    Looks like the same as the catalog from Vintage Machinery.
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Another but a giant 25" that got scrapped because the whole carriage saddle was broken in half and brazed back together

    They thought having a big turret there was just fine a hundred years ago - maybe not enough engineering went into that plan.
    Yeah, that one looks like it was a bit more broken than this one. If this machine had had the saddle broken across the cross feeds, I would have passed on it. As it is, this braze job was done rather well(mechanically, not cosmetically) and looks like it is not close enough to any moving parts to make to much of a difference.

    Keep in mind that this machine will mostly be dedicated to doing 2-4 TPI, 2-4" diameter wooden threading with a powered cutter, so the tolerances it needs to deal with are much lower than one I'd be using for metal work. (I MAY redo the lathe apron. Looking for a mill at the moment, and there is a a good casting place in town that will do one offs for me. If so I may get them to cast a new apron, and mill it myself. same for the tool holder slot part of the cross feed.)

    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    From 1920:
    1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-4of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-5of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-1of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-2of4.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-3of5.jpg
    Looks like the same as the catalog from Vintage Machinery.
    John
    That does look nearly identical. I'm going to check the dimensions and things against that article tomorrow evening to double check. Thanks!

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    Default Update

    I've made a bit of progress on the lathe so far. Stripped it all down, cleaned, primed, painted, etc. It is mostly back together now, but I still have a bunch to do on this lathe. There are several parts that I need that I can't either make or modify without the parts to fix the lathe. . .

    Overall the lathe was in decent shape. It has had some crashes in its time. From what I can tell it got swiped by a forklift at one point. There are several Brazed or welded fixes on various handles and suck, but the worst break was the apron, as mentioned originally. All of them seem to have been fixed very well. The Welds/brazed material was done for function rather than appearance, so it will likely always look a bit uglier than it might have. (Its a working machine though, beauty contests aren't something my machines participate in. . )

    The fixes/brazed/welded areas are why I take things down to metal when I get them. Better to know from the outset what the machine has been through and what limitations it might cause. Fortunately, in this case, a little more delicacy with the apron should be about all that the fixes mean.

    It does need a new crossfeed screw and nut. Already bought From Roton Industries (Man, they ship fast! Less than 24 hours from time of order to delivery) The Nut and screw need modified a bit though, so I'll need to get that done by a third party locally since its a bit more than I can handle precision-wise with my Wood lathe.

    I am still looking for a halfnut engagement lever. I may just end up making one eventually if I cant find one.

    The tumbler gears are worn a little, and the shafts that they are housed in are badly scored. They need replaced before I put the lathe in operation.

    The Drive gear needs replaced as well. The Gear is a rel=placement made of some variety of plastic. It is missing a tooth, and I'd rather it get replaced now than later when I need it in the middle of a job.

    The three gears needed should be pretty simple, but Boston gear does not have EXACTLY what I need so I may just have them modify the three gears when I order.

    Making a new Locking lever for the tailstock as well. I'm not planning on getting fancy, but I need some arrangement that works better than what is on there now.

    I decided to leave the drive all transmission in place. I don't care for it, but it will hopefully be either useful or fade into the background so I don't notice it too much.

    Still Have a bunch of touch up painting to do, but that can wait until it is 100% back together and operational.

    I do have some new belts on order I may simply replace them, or I may switch the DriveAll units pulley to a flat belt pulley and go back to a flat belt. Not sure yet. I hate having to pull the spindle to change belts though. Also, since you have to remove the belts to pull the cover, a flat belt would make that much easier.

    Next up is waiting for parts and switching the electrical over to 220v single phase from 110v. I'll need to make a switch mounting bracket once I figure out where I want it on this lathe.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2018-04-01-01.27.46.jpg   2018-04-01-11.02.04.jpg   2018-04-01-11.01.56.jpg   2018-04-01-13.26.07.jpg   2018-04-01-13.25.57.jpg  


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    Looks like I need to find the following:

    Gears:
    12 tooth, 1.75 od, 8 DP, 14.5 PA 7/8" (.875) Bore,1" face
    14 tooth, 2.00 od, 8 DP, 14.5 PA 7/8" (.875) Bore, 1" face
    40 tooth, 5.25 od. 8 DP, 14.5 PA, 1.25" Bore, .75" face

    I'll be giving Boston Gear a call tomorrow, try to find out if they can modify some of their gears to work. They have the right tooth counts,PA, DP, etc, but looks like they don't have a stock gear for those three that match the OD that I need.

    Anyone know of a source for those gears off the shelf in the meantime? I might try Fastenal and Grainger as well. Called MSC already and they were not very helpful for once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdevans View Post
    ... I may do some modification there and either sling the motor below If I can or leave it where it is and fab up some guards/enclosures. Its not my hand placement I worry about as much as I don't like how unbalanced and top heavy the overhead configurations make the machine. I think that I may be able to mill two slots below the headstock pulleys and return it to flat belt drive, but I am going to wait until the headstock apart to determine that.
    Well, that won't work. Decided to leave the motor/belts alone for the time being. (just putting new belts on it when they show up.)


    Crossfeed screw is in, machined and installed. Electric should be done tomorrow. One new bolt and nut to modify to hold the tailstock, then she'll be up and running, more or less. Still waiting on oilers, so not going to be able to do more than test it out until I get those installed. (I could just keep adding oil, but I'd most likely get carried away and forget to. Not to mention I'd be running the risk of getting chips in the oil holes)

    That Nut on the crossfeed was really bad. . . The new nut was round, so had a spacer milled to match the radius. Repinned the gear and spacer. I need to make a spacer for between the graduated dial and the tri-ball handle, but gotta get the lathe up and running first. A few teporary washers are taking up the slack at the moment.

    The Enco Turret tool holder cleaned up nicely. I took it apart, cleaned it, stripped off the thick coat of paint, oiled and put it back together. Dropped the springs about 8 times in the process, and spent a good hour looking for them. I also got new screws for the top. There were 4 different head styles in it when I got it, and I'm not going to keep 4 tools near the lathe to do one job.

    SO, coming along, just a bit slower than I would like. Work keeps on getting in the way, then today I was going to tackle the electrical, went to drill and tap a new mounting hole for the drum switch and the latch on my drill case broke, dropped and spilled a few hundred drill bits all over the shop floor. So, I made a few organizers for bits and tooling instead of working on the lathe today.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sidney-lathe-4-13-.jpg   sidney-lathe-4-10-.jpg   sidney-lathe-4-17-.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    From 1920:
    1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-4of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-5of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-1of5.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-2of4.jpg1920-sidney-light-pattern-engine-lathe-3of5.jpg
    Looks like the same as the catalog from Vintage Machinery.
    John
    I did some checking on the lathe and found that the basics are the same as listed, but the one difference that I have found is that the spindle threads are 2 1/4-8, instead of 2 1/4-6.

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    The lathe came with a 6 jaw chuck. I'll be needing a 4 jaw for general use. Looks like I'll be making a purchase relatively soon on one. I found two sources for pre-threaded back plates that should theoretically fit the spindle, one is fully machined from Shars and the other is from LMS and needs to be machined in every aspect aside from the threads. I'll likely get one of each, as I need a 4 jaw and another specialty chuck as well. I will also likely get an un-threaded blank just in case the back plates do not fit the lathe for some reason.

    I did test the spindle run-out and was happy that it is only about .00025". I tested the 6 jaw chuck(all I have done to it so far is some light cleaning)and it is rather unusable as is. .005 run-out at its best, .012 at its worst, and repeat-ability is non existent.

    I had been planning on a 4 jaw anyhow, but was pretty disappointed in the existing chuck. I have never rebuilt a chuck, although I have taken them apart for cleaning and oiling. That may be a project for later on after the lathe has something that actually works mounted on it.

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    I have basically the same lathe and it also has the carrage brazed or welded in the same place, was this possibly a factory done thing. I thought mine may have been knocked over and broke but that's a pretty big coincidence I would think

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    Dan, forget the Sidney and go get this Springfield in Chicago for $220.
    https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tls/d/chicago-metal-lathe-and-accessories/6925754056.html
    springfield-lathe.jpg

    John

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    How do you break an apron in half??? Nice old lathe looking better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandiapaul View Post
    How do you break an apron in half???
    If it is in the same place on more than one? Probably by screwing the pooch on mold design and/or casting technique. See John Oder's Greaves-Klusman project for cast part challenges.


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